Wednesday, August 8, 2007

Mage Emo Whining Take One: Arcane Tree

Resistance to Dispel Mechanic

Since the beginning of retail, mages have complained how many of their core talent abilities including Arcane Power, Ice Barrier, Presence of Mind, etc. could all be simply dispelled. This is certainly true for many classes and is true of many of the powerful 41 point talents in TBC. However, mages rely on magical effects more than other classes to control their opponents to both mitgate and deal damage, and unlike the other caster classes has no means to reduce the resistance to dispel of these abilities. Even a moderate change where the chance to dispel magical effects was reduced by 20% through talents could be a drastic improvement. Reducing the chance for a mage's magic effects to be dispelled would also help bring significantly underwhelming talents such as Slow or abilities such as Spellsteal up to par. Not having that PWS or Earthshield immediately removed after you stole it would certainly help better justify the huge mana cost to Spellsteal. Additionally, such a talent especially if in lower Arcane could help mitigate the whole "17 points for 4 seconds of Silence" nature of lower Arcane.

Arena Water

Mage representation in arena declined significantly between seasons one and two with no major class changes to the game. Fundamentally, "outlast" teams all sought to bring a mage as the ability to drink proved to be pivotal in lengthy games. While mages themselves are highly mana dependent and are not fantastic at going the distance in long games where there is abundant mana burning, viper stinging, and drain spam, they made up for this by bringing water to the entire team. The inclusion of water for every class, more than taking mages off of teams, made matrices powerful that previously were not commonly played. In 2s, every healer/X team grew significantly more powerful particularly when compared to healer/mage as with the water advantage out of the way, one of the main assets of mage was lost in the smaller arena format. This change also led to the rise of 2healer/war and melee/drainlock/healer teams in 3s which could now easily outlast the mage/healer/dps teams that could previously hold their own in the lenghty battles due to their ability to drink.

What is perhaps the most frustrating element to the water inclusion for everybody change is that the change is perhaps worse for the arena mage than if no player could use water at all. Water is far more powerful in a healer's hands than it is for a mage. While I think removing water at this point is difficult and perhaps the original dependence on mages for water was too great, there should be an advantage for using mage water instead of Star's Tears. The simplest solution is significantly reducing the mana gain per tick that Star's Tears yields such that a team with Mage water still has a noticeable water advantage over a team without. This won't really address the lack of mages in 2s, but will curb the trend of healer/healer/war and trihealer/2xwar being the best "outlast" teams where the teams benefit significantly from the ability to repetitively drink without giving up a healing slot in their roster.

Current Talents: Arcane Tree

I'm going to very briefly going through each talent as well as what I know of its recent history (Don't worry I'm not going back to Beta, but I do think the evolution of some of these talents is important in contextualizing the talents); I expect that, as WLK grows nearer, there will be abundant discussion posts begging Blue to improve or tweak various things in the next expansion. I hope to just touch on things quickly, again I'm not saying "this is what I want changed", and I do realize that some talents are very situational and that's fine, and also some talents are intended to be even generally "better" than others.

Arcane Focus: Prior to TBC, it was widely accepted that this talent having 5 ranks was an utter waste; there was no viability to using Arcane nukes as a primary source for damage dealing. With the changes to missiles and the inclusion of Arcane Blast, this has changed and I can see how this talent is quite a potent talent for PvE as it allows you to pick up 10 hit in tier 1 of the talent tree. Is this perhaps too powerful? I used to envision this talent being better if it was a PvP/PvE compromise -- provide some arcane +hit and also some dispel resistance, but I don't believe this to be wise any longer.

Arcane Subtlety: This was one of the disappointing compromises Blue made with mages at the tail of the initial mage revamp in 1.11. Originally in the revamp, this was a much cooler talent that reduced the threat generated by critical strikes; mages complained that such a mechanic could not be reliably controlled and that the key part of managing aggro was predictability in how much hate one was generating. This was in the BWL era where Salvation wasn't ubiquitous and fights were much more hate control dependent. Instead of going with a single shallow arcane talent to reduce threat from criticals, the devs opted to give each tree its own powerful aggro reduction talent; these were significantly too powerful in how much they reduced threat and were accordingly severely nerfed in later months with the exception of the Arcane version. The Arcane version remained strong to make Arcane a more attractive PvE DPS alternative in TBC. With the current state of the game, it naively seems to me that the version of this talent where it reduced the threat of any critical might make more sense moving forward and would be more interesting than a flat aggro reduction talent -- this would of course necessitate removing the hate reduction found on Burning Soul and Frost Channeilng. The spell penetration component of this talent feels archaic and no longer relevant to me; it was at the time to quell complaints about resist gear prevalence in BG PvP.

Improved Arcane Missiles: An extremely controversial talent which has polarized the playerbase for the past two years. Tons of players hate missiles even after their many improvements and view this as a sinkhole they dump 5 points into as there simply isn't a better option for the PvP mage in Tier 1 Arcane. Others think missiles are fine situationally and think this talent is reasonable for a Tier 1 talent. Either way, almost every PvP mage even if he never uses missiles will take this talent over the PvE flavored options and every PvE mage will ignore this talent in favor of the other Tier 1 options. My feeling is that missiles are too siuational in PvP and basically require you using the focus metagem to get much utility out of the spell, and this utility largely comes from exploiting a buggy mechanic. The talent does really leave me feeling I've dumped 5 points into a spell I never use. Suggestions over time have included its outright removal and replacement, its reduction to a 3/3 talent, its inclusion of Arcane Blast or all Arcane spells in its interruption protection, or adding a secondary effect to Arcane Missiles similar to what Impact and Frostbite do for fire and frost spells respectively.

Wand Specialization: Amazingly this used to be a 5 point talent for the same effect. Wands are really a relic of times when mages would wand to damage when out of mana (though this was a HUGE pain before auto-wand) or would wand for JoW procs when low on mana. Wand damage scaling has significantly improved although not to the point where wands are much more than a novelty -- their use remains extremely situational and this is talent has been a joke ever since release even with its improvement in 1.11. There's been lots of ideas over the years that include adding a secondary effect to wanding that helps regenerate mana or puts a debuff on the target, but ultimately wanding just doesn't fit the feel of the class and this talent really should be replaced with something relevant.

Magic Absorption: A new talent added during the 1.11 revamp that had a lot of players' hopes up until we learned it only affected full spell resists, or "white" resists. Full white resists are exceptionally rare and really are only found in PvE encounters where you can stack a good deal of resistance and there is a constant source of that damage hitting the player. The talent also grants 10 to all resists for 5 talent points, which while being mediocre/neglible at 60, is laughably so at 70 and beyond. The extra resists should likely be a percentage scaler tied to current resists, intellect, or spirit, or just outright removed so that the talent can have a more clear identify in what it is trying to do. I think being able to clearly define the purpose of a talent is a good litmus test and the best I can come up wtih for Magic Absorption is: "This talent slightly increases your resistance to magical effects and infrequently rewards you with mana when you do fully resist magical effects" The best suggestion I've heard over the years to keeping this talent in line with what I feel it was intended to do (which was marginally improve caster defense and situationally improve PvE mana efficiency) is something like: When struck by a harmful spell, mage gains mana equal to 5/10/15/20/25% of his Intellect over the next 15 seconds. There are lots of other options out there for this talent, but weirdly this talent occupies an important part of the tree, but has never really had an identity.

Clearcasting: Perpetually compared to the shaman talent which mages frequently claim is wildly superior as it requires only a single point investment instead of costing 5 precious talent points. Constantly cited in the argument that mage talents are too "thick" with five point sinks -- a problem only slightly improved during the mage revamp. Regardless, everyone generally feels Clearcasting is a good talent though they may be bitter that it's a bit boring and costs a lot of points. I think that since the talent has been included in nearly every single mage spec with 10 or more talent points in Arcane since release, it is clear that it is the most desirable Tier 2 Arcane talent option available. During the revamp there was a significant push by players to move Clearcasting down to Tier 1 swapping it with Improved Missiles or Arcane Focus, but the devs didn't bite. Ultimately this talent is fine; I don't think it is too strong -- its inclusion in nearly every build is simply a product of the alternative talents being too undesirable.

Arcane Fortitude: Formerly, evocation occupied the 11 point slot. Every mage who did any PvE before the mage revamp was essentially forced to spec into shallow arcane just to pick up Evocation (most were expected to have Improved Arcane Explosion as well which required 16, and most opted to invest at that point the 2 for Imp CS). The revamp made Evocation trainable and everyone anxiously theorycrafted over what new ability would be given in the 11 point Arcane Slot. Every mage "gold medal" (the 11,21,31,41) talents is actively used with the exception of Arcane Fortitude; while most would see the change in the revamp as a general improvement, players were furious to be given a passive, and not particularly interesting or powerful 11 point talent. The drama over the talent was not aided by developer admission that the talent was lackluster and that it would look to be improved before moving from PTR to live -- it never was and the Blue stance has since changed. Oddly, players have come to not hate this talent as the 2% physical mitigation (or 1.5% if you use Ice Armor) has become appreciated at least to a significant minority of players. There have been hundreds of fantasy tree revisions almost all with exotic or elaborate new 11 point talents; I think that most players would be happy with even a pretty mediocre ability here as long as it was active.

Magic Attunement: A problem talent. Initially Dampen and Amplify were extremely weak and it was hardly noticeable whether you were using one or the other. They were moderately improved during the revamp, although the net effect was likely not intended -- Dampen simply became powerful for outright negating certain weak elemental PvE damage; this was later nerfed. The talents are problematic because they've been perpetually buggy. For long periods of time, the talents would simply have no effect on either ability. During TBC, the talents for a while actually decreased the effect of both Amplify and Dampen. The lack of other options in shallow Arcane occasionally convince players to opt for this talent, but given how frequently it has been broken and how few players even realize when it is broken (demonstrating how little it does), this talent is a frequent target of scrutiny. Suggestions have generally centered around simply increasing the amount of scaling or having the scaling only effect the "positive" side of the two abilities.

Arcane Impact: The replacement to Improved Arcane Explosion, which was the talent so problematic that it was probably the driving impetus for the mage revamp. Not much attention was ever given to its replacement at the time, as most players simply felt relieved they didn't "need" to dump 16 points into Arcane to make one of their core spells, which they were all expected to have, functional. The talent was lackluster and generally avoided pre-TBC but with the inclusion of Arcane Blast and the talent's bonus to Arcane Blast, it fits well in the tree at this point. Generally one of those talents that is not discussed in any class discussions.

Improved Mana Shield: It really wasn't very long ago at all when Mana Shield only absorbed physical damage. Mana Shield is honestly more the problem than this talent; the shield absorbs too little relative to damage scaling in TBC which is made worse by the lack of the PvP glove bonus we became accustomed to during WoW 1.0. This talent is situational and ends up in a decent numbers of specs, so perhaps its fine, though most would likely agree that it should probably reduce the mana cost per point of absorption at least slightly more to warrant investment.

Arcane Meditation: Spirit is really the problem more than this talent. This talent is generally pretty good in PvE and has been prevalent in raiding specs for as long as I can remember. I don't really see this talent being "too good" and as a non-raider any longer, I can understand that not every talent need be relevant to every player. When Spirit is inevitably improved in the expansion, talents that take advantage of Spirit will of course be indirectly improved.

Improved Counterspell: The gem of arcane mages really pushed to get trainable during the first revamp, and then again during Beta of TBC. "Why do warlock pets get it for free and it costs us 17 talent points?" Again, the issue is fundamentally the weak talents in lower arcane make it FEEL like you really are spending 17 talent points just for this talent. Then again, it is possibly STILL worth it. Tons of players will rant on and on about how this talent is a "crutch" or how you should always insure full spell locks to not waste the CS cooldown -- this is nonsense. Imp CS is fantastic, get over yourselves. ^^

Arcane Mind: Very simple and vastly improved since WoW 1.0. Only common in deep, deep Arcane builds that take advantage of the scaling between this talent and Mind Mastery. I think that there's little argument that this is a fine talent. It isn't a "must-have" for many players but works well within the tree and finds its way into a solid numbers of players' talents.

Presence of Mind: Trademark "gold medal" talent of the class for the first year or more of the game in WoW 1.0. Inevitably when combined with AP and double trinkets was the centerpiece of the "IWIN" macros that filled half of the mage PvP videos for a whole era. Prior to the revamp, basically every spec committed to taking PoM due to the "required" investments in the lower talents, and the low marginal cost in picking up PoM. Since the revamp opened up Elemental as more viable and increasingly so since TBC, PoM has become drastically less relevant to mage gameplay. It is still a potent 21 point talent, but with bigger health pools, and more attractive options in other specs, it is exponentially less prevalent...not a bad thing. Many are already eyeing 21/0/41+ as potential awesomeness in WLK, but I'm mostly of the opinion that while this talent will always be solid, the relative importance of a single instant spell has gone way done with larger health pools and increased survivability. It is perhaps more in line with how it should be at this point.

Improved Blink: One of the talents that I WHINED about nonstop during beta. It isn't bad, saving 300+ mana per blink can really add up pretty quickly; even a rogue duel where I blink 3 times, I've saved 1k mana which is honestly pretty significant. The problem is that it is deep in the tree for a talent that helps a single spell that's on cooldown. This is begging to be Improved Spellsteal instead. Others would rather see this be a cooldown reduction on Blink similar to what's on the PvP and Gladiator gear or a talent that increases the distance of Blink. (The latter of which I rather like) Most players feel that when you compare this to the more general Arcane Mind on the same tier, there's little incentive to pick this option. There really aren't any specs that have enough points to spare to pick up both.

Arcane Potency: One of the late additions to the TBC talents that left the beta players pretty divided. A lot of people thought the talent was pretty weak as it basically relied on a random proc and then only increased your chance to land a critical strike and the whole thing was very uncontrollable and awkward. On the other hand, it works well with Arcane Missiles and it does help those AP/PoM Pyroblasts crit a lot more if you save it for a Clearcasting proc. Overall, it isn't a very good return on investment per point if you care about sustained damage (just over 3%), but is still potent enough to find its way into many specs that are focused on dealing damage and look to take as many damage scaling talents as possible. I'd argue that it is highly underwhelming considering the Clearcasting requirement and depth in the tree (it seems like it would be a guaranteed critical, not just an increased chance to be honest), but the fact that it ends up in so many builds and that players generally seem to like it proves that it is probably fine as is. It is perpetually one of those types of talents I'm inclined to avoid.

Arcane Potency: Generic damage scaling talent that is quite good and the only complaints generally involve "I spend tons of points in crap in lower Arcane and only get to spend 3 here?" Perhaps talents like this are too good, but when compared to what other classes get for similar talents, it certainly is not out of line.

Prismatic Cloak: An impossibly hard talent to analyze. Honestly, 2% mitigation to all damage per point is amazing. However, you can only invest 2 points and you are starved for points once you get this far down in Arcane; only PvP specs are looking for a talent like this and they really need Blazing Speed or Ice Block and have very few points to spend at this depth. The fact that you can only invest 2 points really makes this talent far less noticeable than it could potentially be otherwise, but would any really want this as a 5 point talent? (Probably not!) A lot of people in beta were hoping this would be a buff as for some reason that rumor floated around for a while. The rumor was that this was a castable buff on party members that was 4% damage mitigation. That would be neat! (AND overpowered!)

Empowered Arcane Missiles: I hated all the "Empowered" talents when they were first were released in TBC. I thought they were pretty uninspired in general and in comparison to other tier 7 and tier 8 talents for other classes. Empowered Missiles were the best of the three however. The two edged nature of making Missiles significant more damaging but more mana consuming (the main downside to missiles) is more interesting than the one dimensional Empowered talents. This talent really transforms missiles into a real nuke and opened up Arcane as a viable damage spec. It is probably too powerful even at its current depth, but Arcane Missiles are a somewhat weak spell without the talent relatively, so the overall result I see as pretty fair.

Arcane Power: The "gold medal" talent everybody loves to hate. The slight nerf from 35 to 30% was generally irrelevant and this talent still gives AP mages the highest "burst" you can get in the game. Sure it can be dispelled, costs a ton of mana, and lasts for a very short time, but the damage scaling is pretty ridiculous. If mages were more resistance to dispels, I think most would feel this talent is in line with their expectations. Going forward into WLK, there really aren't any 31/31 specs that are particularly terrifying. A lot of players over the years have cried for the removal for Arcane Power as they felt that it hurt the class more than it helped -- the arguments pointed how people complained repeatedly about Zerking+Trinkets+Beserking+AP PoM Pyros. The "idea" was to trade AP for more consistent damage or better survivability; I was always indifferent to the arguments really. I think AP is fine and in line with other 31 points talents especially with the larger health pools in TBC and moving forward into WLK.

Spell Power: The very last addition to mage TBC talents. This came as a shock to most players and was really out of nowhere. Nobody asked for it! It is quite good -- there was huge drama over how much damage it should add, but looking back, I think its current state is reasonable in the current game. It doesn't really add a LOT of damage to criticals, but per point investment, it is a great talent and I don't think many would argue that this talent needs improvement. ^^

Mind Mastery: I don't know what to say about MM really; it is pretty bland, but pretty good. I think it is inline with other classes' Tier 8 damage scaling talents.

Slow: This went through a few iterations during beta before it ended up movement speed, casting speed, and ranged attack speed. Despite arguments otherwise, the current Slow is probably the best Slow ever in TBC. Reducing melee attack speed is just not that important as most abilities are instant. Slow has many problems including high mana cost, the ability to only use it on a single target, the ease at which it can be dispelled, and the fact that any ability that removes movement impairing effects removes Slow entirely. Unfortunately, almost every class can self-remove Slow and even when they cannot, such a high portion of PvP damage comes from instant abilities that Slow acts more like a movement snare than anything else. A 700 mana 41 point instant snare that is on par with Cone of Cold and Rank 1 frostbolt. Improvements to Slow have included: Dramatically reduce the mana cost, make Slow AoE or allow you to cast it on multiple targets, make Slow resistant to dispel or add a punishment similar to what is on UA for dispelling Slow (root/stun?), or swap Slow with a lower tier "gold medal" talent. In TBC, Slow is generally an ability only relevant in PvP and unfortunately any PvP spec requires Ice Block or at least Blazing Speed, both of which preclude ever having Slow.


This is just a first pass!

28 comments:

Anonymous said...

This isn't related, but does Aesthyr still play his mage?

Smivy from Anetheron said...

This is irrelevant as well, but I'd love to give you a run for your money if youre up for a PTR duel. I have only seen one mage who can consistantly beat me, Hiyather, and he's pretty sick. I'd love to duel you.

tinhay said...

I have to admit that I didn't finish reading it all, but - despite the fact that I've never played a mage - I can understand why mages crave for a certain amount of dispel resistance. All I have to do is log my measly 39 shaman alt, find the next mage and start spamming purge while [insert dps class here] hits on said mage.

The first thing that came into my mind was a talent that works like a self-buffable unstable affliction for the enemy dispeller's manabar.

Anonymous said...

Great start rad

Raddy said...

I'll def try to be on PTR this weekend. I'm about to 5s right now, and I still have to update and stuff. It was so frustratingly laggy last I checked that I lost interest.

teki said...

Too long! I'll give it a read at work tomorrow.

klassick said...

Gonna spec slow for a day just to be 100% positive that it is indeed the worst 41 point talent in the game, next to Lightwell of course.

Anonymous said...

Slow is about as situational as AM. Just like everyone says, why waste the mana on it when you can use Rank 1 Frostbolt. Why waste the mana to slow a cast down when you can just interrupt a cast with a Counter Spell or Iceblock a big spell for that matter.


You can do everything better than an Arcane Mage as a Frost Mage in PvP. Obviously not sustained high output DPS but a Mage really isn't doing much of that in the Arena compared to a boss fight.

klassick said...

Spray n Pray from Ruin BG runs a 5dps team and their mage swaps specs between frost and deep arcane. He has 2pc tier 5 and never pre-barriers so you don't really know what spec he is running. We left him alone one game when he was arcane and he completely destroyed everything with Arcane Blast.

That is pretty much the only time I have ever had any respect for the arcane tree, ever.

Anonymous said...

as a priest i find the dispel resist shit one of the most frustrating things in pvp atm so i'd rather not see slow getting it.

personally i'd reduce its manacost greatly, add short cd to it and make it useable to multiple targets

lightwell is 31 point btw

Anonymous said...

"Mind Mastery: I don't know what to say about MM really; it is pretty bland, but pretty good. I think it is inline with other classes' Tier 8 damage scaling talents."

Paladins get 35%, Druids get 25% their fifth tier.

teki said...

I think rad was saying like the amount of dps you gain is similar to what other DPS classes get, not that the talent is just as good as similar percent stat talents. You can't really compare the hybrid talents because they will always be better it seems.

Anonymous said...

Prismatic cloak impossible to analyze? At 10,000 HP its 400 HP or 40 stamina. If the talent said +40 stamina people would be ALL OVER IT. However, most folks say OMG a 4000 DMG pyro and it only reduced the damage by 160!! You have to look at this talent holistically to understand the benefits and not ONLY that but it scales with your HP and scaling talents are always good for OP folks like yourself with the best gear in game. :)

Magdain said...

Too apathetic to read the talent breakdown, so my comments on the first two ideas:


Resistance to dispel for mage buffs is extremely reasonable, and should have been added when other classes got theres (druid subtlety and such). A priest or shaman negating key talents of almost every tree is quite dumb.

However, dispel resistance on debuffs from mages, even slow, would be a balance nightmare. When in a group comp with multiple magic debuffs, polymorph is extremely potent, and mages go an extremely long way in shutting paladins down as it ease. Increasing the power of that would be ridiculous.


As for arena water.. I think it's pretty clear that it is necessary to have it universally accessible, especially as long as resilience keeps scaling, and they keep adding in new extremely powerful arena healing gear. It's also gone a long way in making resto druids arena-viable, especially since they don't mesh particularly great with mages.

Nerfing Star's Tears mp/tick would have some huge effects on group viability, but it's still an issue. A better solution would be to scale mage water so they it frontloads a little more regen, so the first few ticks give more and each consecutive tick gives less, but still keep the total amount of mana gain the first.

If implemented properly it would give mages which are in many ways a mana liability a little more power, and it would give groups more reason to bring a mage for utility, but not mandatory.

Magdain said...

..some of what I said is barely English I'm pretty sure..

"long way in shutting paladins down as it ease."

Ease should be "is."


"but still keep the total amount of mana gain the first."

And first should be "same"... o.O

Derrick Crowe said...

I agree with most of what you said, and with what the previous poster said...mages need a talent that damages the dispeller of self-buffs, but not of debuffs on opponents. Like the flip side of UA. Or a dispel resist on a cooldown that makes every debuff cast during its duration much harder to dispel.

Matt said...

Too much emo.

Honestly mages are one of the last classes that need to be looked at. Monopoly on water was just retardedly overpowered, it essentially made our presence required without offering anything interesting to the team.

The real problem with ice mages in 2v2 is that we don't have reliable sustained damage. We're a heavy control and survivability class, so coupled with a healer it's extremely difficult to land a killing blow against anyone geared. Part of this is strongly tied to the resilience mitigation glitch which is being fixed next patch. Once our shatter comboes are only reduced by 20% instead of 33% (vs 400 resilience) our burst will be a lot stronger.

This problem carries over into 3s, but of course in 5s we become extremely strong with the ability to control multiple at once, combined with excellent deterrents against focus fire. You can freeze, polymorph, and silence someone all at the same time. Of course the ability to CC multiple targets is absolutely useless in 2s, and marginally less useful in 3s.

So what's the solution? I'm not sure there is one, other than to group with another heal/dps hybrid, or control/dps hybrid. I'd like to try elemental shaman/ice mage for 2s if I can find a good partner. Ice mage + pure healer is too defensive. I don't think you can just simply up our effective damage without nerfing survivability somewhere, and that effect can be achieved be speccing arcane/fire anyway.

Dispel resistance would be an interesting way to seat deep as arcane as a strong alternative to ice. I don't see this as necessary at all, though. Mages are not a highly magic-buff dependent class. We have ice barrier in the ice tree, and if you're the arcane-ish type then an AP-pom-whatever should be macroed and launched before dispel is really possible anyway. The only way to get pom dispelled is through sloppy play. As for our offensive debuffs? Hahahahahah. Dispel resistance on polymorph would be retardedly overpowered. Our warlock equivalent already is (hint: nerf warlocks), there's no reason for contagion to work on CC abilities like fear and CoT.

Dispel resist on slow would be a-ok. It needs a mana cost reduction too, straight up, to justify taking 41 points in arcane at all. Don't underestimate slowed casting speed though - CoT is very powerful and slow works pretty much the same way, except is even more debilitating. You just sacrifice too much getting to it, and it's too much mana to use more than a few times.

Same applies to spell-steal, actually.

Vontre said...

Above post = Vontre

Anonymous said...

Raddy, just got a quick question for the build i see you having in armory. You chose to have only 1 point in improved cone of cold and you maxed out empowered FB and arctic winds. I pretty much like exactly what you did with the frost tree but what do you think about maxing CoC and having 4 and 4 for empowered FB and arctic winds?

Anonymous said...

i dont think mages having a monopoly was a bad thing. it was the worst possible way to "fix" mana users in arena compared to warriors/rogues. someone said in 2's mages are not good and this is true, it is very hard to sustain a high rating anymore. but back when there was only mage water alot of the time my resto druid and myself could just play the outlast game to get a win. sure it was pretty gay way to win but some combos are pretty difficult to burst down in 2's when they just run in circles around pillars. we were top 10 for a long time but now we just cant get much momentum this season. for one reason or another we get warlocks 90% of the time (im not kidding) on my mage.

the dispel resistance thing would be amazing but kind of overpowered. tho with sheep getting shortened to 10, 5, 2.5, immune next patch it might not be too bad. as it is more times then not my first sheep is trinketed anyways. would it be that terrible that i have a player CC'ed for the next 7 seconds?

dispel resists on myself would be even better in my opinion as getting purged 10 times at the start of a 5v5 makes me sad. if this worked on things like mass dispel tho it would be pretty amazing for iceblock.

Vontre said...

You're seeing a lot of warlocks because warlocks are ridiculous in 2s =)

Anonymous said...

Awesome stuff raddy, keep it up.

-xhell

Raddy said...

thx for the feedback/comments btw

this is not intended to be a wholly raddy-centric thing. I'll definitely incorporate what is said here as my purpose was to summarize as much as editorialize these talents. obviously, sometimes I step over the line and add straight-up opinion on issues, but often these are at least reasonably common perspectives.

On the water issue, I like the frontloaded water solution, but it seems somewhat more difficult to implement as it seems like a new mechanic.

Dispel resistance obviously cuts both ways in how feel people about it. I'm actually more interested in offensive dispel resistance, but I recognize that this in conjunction with Winter's Chill could become quickly overpowered. (Then again 20% is not very much)

As for Aesthyr, I prefer to avoid the topic of Korean WoW because I know so little and because Aesthyr doesn't want people to know who his character is on Korean servers for various reasons. (I don't really know them) He does play a BE mage of "similar" name to his original character and plays with a lot of BE on his arena teams. If you're hardcore that should be enough to find him. =p Why do you ask btw? He's not a big wow player. ^^

Anonymous said...

because aesthyr > u

teki said...

Speaking of made up talent trees, you see the thread on these trees on forums earlier this week?

http://talents.utimer.ppvh.eu/?p=vt&i=31343

Animastryfe said...

2 Arcane Potencies up there. I think one of them is arcane instability.

Anonymous said...

I don't see how taking the water away from others would help mages in 2v2. It's the warlock teams which cause problems there and you cant really drink vs them anyway.

Just nerf the locks and you'll see lot more mages in top10.

If they add any more dispel resist talents they need to reduce dispel's mana cost or it becomes completely useless. It's already often more manaefficient just to heal the dmg than trying to dispel whatever crap there is on the character.

Anonymous said...

I was riveted. Really loved this analysis. I didn't agree with it 100%, but I found it very insightful. I read every word, many twice.

I started out almost entirely full fire. I originally wanted to go full arcane, it really caught my interest, but I couldn't find anyone I knew who had done it and could give me feedback. I went about 45 levels before I made the switch to mostly arcane and 11 to pyro in fire. First instance I ran after that I was hooked in a big way. Realized I made a huge error in putting 5 points in absorption, and am now putting vigorous thought into the changes I want to make and whether I want any points in fire at all at this point.

Contrary to what you said, I find I am using my AM a lot and enjoying the heck out of it. No aggro, seriously decent DPS - equal to fireball when you consider interruptions etc., and not once did I have to stop and drink, so not sure where the mana issue is. On pure fire I was drinking between every fight.

I am not sold on improved counterspell. Maybe I will be in time. For now my debate seems to fall on Focus and how important that is. I have two early points I have to place and am sitting quite firmly on the fence about that and how deep 0/7/11 I want to go into fire now. My 70 spec will probably involve 15 fire but I don't know how important that is to me right now vs those wonderful arcane bumps for leveling. I have yet to find anyone resistant to arcane for leveling. Fire on the other hand...... and IMO pyro is overrated in lower levels, it's really just a slow puffy fireball for the dps unless you make it an instant cast, which I admit is kind of nice, but worth 11 points in fire for me when I only have 37 to spend? That deep arcane stuff is beconing me....

More thoughts please, it's been many months and I enjoy the read!