Tuesday, August 28, 2007

Last Thoughts on the WSVG Drama

There has been been a lot of recent discussion here, on GameRiot posts, and on IRC centered on the "ethics" of what went down at WSVG. It is rarely my objective to spark up drama and you should be aware that 90% of what I say is in fun or tongue in cheek. While my take on the events is somewhat biased in the favor of YWL, consider that I have been a MoB fan ever since the first WSVG event and we were certainly some of the louder idiots at Bilzzcon professing our love for Godfather during the finals.

I'm not angry at MoB for what happened and I don't think that the MoB players deserve to be the "bad guys" for what went down. I encourage everyone to get the "facts" over on GR from Kow's post. As with most things, the majority of the drama comes from lack of understanding.

Had Blizzard understood the pressing need for updated premades better, had WSVG admins understood the need to be both more flexible and more clear in their rules, had the WSVG admins had better game knowledge to understand that changing a hunter pet is no big deal ethically, had Godfather understood that the Scorpid was not an "unfair advantage", and you could go on and on, but the point is that this situation could have been averted.

I've heard some arguments saying that because this event is "for money" anything goes with respect to sacrificing honor in order to secure the win. I really don't get this line of thinking at all. People are playing competitively because they love the game and because they love the recognition. Certainly there is a "if I'm going to play all weekend anyways, I might as well have a chance to win some money" thing going on, but realistically how many of the WSVG players want to play WoW "professionally?"

Perhaps part of the issue is that it is hard to know if the hardcore PvP audience is really relevant to WoW as a game. How many players are tuning in to these WSVG events, 50k at most? The other 8.95 million players don't give a fuck? And how many of us were watching the CGS 2v2s, at most 100? It doesn't help that the majority of the strong players are on a single battlegroup and that the PvP cliques are generally pretty pretentious. ^^

I think lots of us want people to care a lot more about these events, but truthfully, even though Forgotten Heroes has a lot of PvPers, in a guild with over a 100 members, less than 15 watched the WSVG matches. And to be honest, if I couldn't duel on test between games or talk trash on IRC, I don't know if I would have the patience to sit around to watch the matches. It takes like 10 hrs of wasted time to watch 25 minutes of arena over the span of 3 days. I guarantee the viewership would grow exponentially if the WSVG product was just 25 minutes of solid arena. WSVG either needs overlapping "main stage" matches that they can switch between to reduce dead time or simply needs to not be live. The scheduling needs to be more precise and the whole thing needs to be thought of from the perspective of what the potential viewer wants -- I know this sounds like stupid MBA drivel but how many people have the time/patience for the current format?

You can really look at the idea of competitive WoW in very different ways. One is that you treat the audience as a niche market and tailor your competitive arena PvP product to live up to this small target audience's expectations -- this is the "eSports" approach. I'm not going to go into how else you might market competitive WoW, but is WoW as eSport realistic?

There is a lot of "WoW is a terrible eSport because ..." arguments out there. Too much randomness, too hard to watch as a spectator, too poorly balanced, too much rock/paper/scissors, and too little skill requirement are the most common. Beyond the difficulty in spectating, I'm not sure if this stuff matters too much. Poker has tons of randomness and, because of this randomness, very frequently do players of low relative skill win major events, yet poker has been extremely successful commercially. While the number of poker players is probably an order of magnitude larger than WoW players, I would imagine that the competitive poker market is still several orders of magnitude larger than its WoW equivalent.

I don't want to turn this wall of nonsensical wall of text-ness into a REALLY REALLY long nonsensical wall of text so I'll derail further and say that I think that WoW is a great game in which to be a competitive gamer, but not for the money. (I don't really think that the expected payout of any game or any sport is very good with the exception of poker) I think the whole "there is money on the line" nonsense floating around is well, nonsense. Everyone is playing to have a good time and for the eFame. =p The failures so far in making WoW, which has a huge playerbase, into a successful, competitive game come from not making the spectating experience enjoyable.

11 comments:

Nimble said...

Your statements that everyone is playing for fun and fame, and that money is really not an issue are (in my opinion) pretty ridiculous.

Actually they are completely insane. I'm not here to say whether I think it was ok or not (what MoB did), but the bottom line is you know they would not have done it if money wasn't an issue.

Anonymous said...

Hi, I would like to watch the CGS and WSVG games but can't seem to find any links for it. Where do you guys find the videos for it? Would appreciate it if you can link it here. Thanks a million!

Zyz said...

http://files.filefront.com/wsvgCA+MoBvsPandemicwmv/;8401759;;/fileinfo.html

Goretongue said...

In response to Nimble -- some people are just very, very competitive and will do anything to win. From my own experience, and being quite competitive myself, I think it'd be safe to say that I'd have done the same thing in MOB's shoes even if money had not been a factor.

I imagine that being so focused on winning these big tournaments-- having a sponsorship behind you, traveling around the world with the sole intent of winning, etc.-- and then incurring a loss when you know the other team has violated the rules, would be quite frustrating.

I don't think "honor" and other such ideas about their conduct are really applicable here-- it's certainly not what I would be thinking about in their place. I'd be thinking about winning.

Ward said...

I agree with all of your points. The money isn't that great, and the game is not suited for people to play "professionally"

I wrote a lot of the same on my blog

http://www.gameriot.com/blogs/Bakers-Oven/

Anonymous said...

just cuz yer a spoiled yuppie brat doesnt mean others dont want to get paid to play a game their good at

Shawn said...

Of course people care about the money. But their actions would not have changed any by having or not having a purse. Unless that purse was ridiculously large.

With or without the winnings, YWL would still have used the scorpid and MoB still would have asked for a rematch. So for arguments sake Raddy is right.

Anonymous said...

I just hope blizzard will create a GTV-like system to watch the matchs lively. Or allow demo recording of a spectator, allow spectator in arena. Just see what was done for other esported games like SC, W3, Q3, CS ...

Wreck said...

I've always thought that an in game spectating instance for live events like WSVG would really get a huge chunk of the WoW player base interested in competitive WoW. If watching a live tournament was as simple as entering an instance in your server a lot more people would try it out. There are obvious technical issues, but this not the time or place.

Vontre said...

Pretty much agree here, but I think the biggest issue is anyone interested doesn't really know who to cheer for. A lot of hearsay makes these players sound like elitist pricks, whether that's true or not isn't really relevant because the perception is that there's really no one to root for. I watched the first WSVG on a second monitor at work, and I actually paid attention to Spoh's match because "I kinda sorta know that guy but not really but he seemed cool when I ran into him and he's from my battlegroup". That and the fellas from IRC were joining in to laugh about the announcers. Second time around, no one cares, and now that Spoh left his teammates to join "the mob" or whatever bullshit that is I don't really care to root for him either.

Baseball and football do so well because they're easy to get behind, there's a city or a school backing those teams and cheering for them makes you feel like part of the community. You live in St. Louis, you like to hear that the cardinals win because that brings pride to your city. There's nothing like that in warcraft.

Kraderif said...

Partially disagree with you.

I think that yes, almost anyone who has gone so far to become a PRO on whatever he/she does, started doing so for fun and love. Then he realizes he is good at it, and wants to become a PRO because wants to live (from) doing what he loves to do. But that can't be done if you don't devote yourself to do so.
At that moment, it must stop being "for fun", because "for fun" is not serious.

But for living you need money, so if you want to live by doing what you love to do, you have to care about earning money.

Once you go from "I do it for love" to "I do it for living", the line to pass to "I do it for money" is very very, very thin. And once its about money, then you are very susceptible to being corrupted. It is just as it is: money can corrupt anything.


Yes, maybe I went too far, and yes, maybe this is not so true for PRO gaming, cause no matter how much bullshit Ming says about WoW being a serious business, no one can really make a living from being a PRO gamer. On that we agree.

But lets also be honest, everyone who went to play to WSVG is interested in something more beside the fun and the e-fame. Maybe it is not about money, at least not all of it -I also think that is nonsense-, but all of them want to win.
What this whole YWL vs MoB thing showed us (beside all the faults that WSVG has), is that the players went far enough to do everything on their hands to win, which to some point, is understandable, but also questionable.