"Ah, but see, there’s the whiny post, and then there’s the whiny post we agree with. Big difference."
This comes after a post saying "We're looking into it" so it bodes pretty well for those in favor of this change. Before even talking the morality (yeah) of such a change, I think everyones should probably chill and recognize the change will be minor most likely.
My thoughts on the change are basically that it will be good for the game. While it's true damage over time abilities cannot crit, are hit doubly by resistance gear (white resists at the front, yellow resists during duration), and are not "bursting" people down, DoTs generate huge damage that most classes cannot counter or mitigate. Most of the good tools classes have at avoiding damage range from mediocre (Ice Block) to totally ineffective (Spell Reflect) against damage over time abilities. I'm not really sure that DoTs + shadowburn + MB/death should kill a warrior reliably during a spell lock on his paladin teammate.
The change I imagine will at most be the -crit damage bonus being applied to all damage over time effects, so 400 resilience will yield a 20% reduction in damage over time effects. As arena gear scales, this could lead to someday 30-35% reduction in DoT damage, which seems severe, but consider that the -crit damage bonus to normal cast time spells and attacks kicks in exactly when it is most effective. As a WE mage, my pet does pretty solid damage for sure, but my real strength in arena comes from shatter combos. Considering crit chance on these attacks is > 75%, that -20% damage to my crits, isn't that far from just a 20% reduction to my shatter potential. You can extend the same logic to CB. The classes that bring burst damage to arena via controllable crit chance have been hit much harder by resilience than theorycraft paper numbers make it seem. You can't just say well you have a 25% crit chance, so 400 resil is basically 5% less damage, it really is the whole -20%.
The change will hopefully bring warlocks down from utter domination of 1 on 1 as well; BM hunters, WE mages, and Rogues would have significantly better odds and perhaps even be favorites with full CD.
Obviously you should fight against changes to your class that you disagree with, and I'm definitely receptive to hearing arguments as to why DoTs being unaffected by the core defensive PvP stat is justifiable so long as they aren't just:
- "But DoTs can't crit!" And resilience makes us crit not only for less damage but less often, even with this change, you're only eating half of what other classes eat on resilience. (Sorta...)
- "But we're already screwed by resists" I agree -- you should be unable to change gear when the doors open in Arena, but such a change does seem pretty unlikely. Better get that anti-resist set with spell penetration gems. LOL.
- "Resilience is intended to reduce burst in PvP; DoTs by definition are not burst" This is certainly true, though the combination of DoTs with tradition direct damage IS a lot of burst.
15 comments:
"The change will hopefully bring warlocks down from utter domination of 1 on 1 as well; BM hunters, WE mages, and Rogues would have significantly better odds and perhaps even be favorites with full CD."
The game is not based around 1v1. BM hunters and rogues DO beat warlocks in 1v1 though. In 5v5 the majority of warlock dps can be completely removed. That is why resilience will not affect dots. Besides dots are not burst damage. You say this yourself, then you say but dots with shadowburn is burst. Think of dots as white damage. The burst on a rogue is never the burst damage, its the eviscerate or the mutilate. Rogue white damage can crit, and is affected. Dot's can't crit and wont be affected.
Besides changing dot's to be affected would mean a buff to dot coefficients. Before BC came out there was a nerf to all coefficients to balance out the damage at 70. Another nerf is unneeded. People need to stop complaining about losing to warlocks in 2v2 and 3v3 and play real arena where warlocks are not brought in for damage but for utility.
This game is pretty well balanced even one on one. With small adjustments, I think it can be VERY well balanced.
I definitely disagree with your point about BM hunters and rogues beating warlocks. Azael lost to nobody on test with any reasonable frequency. BM hunters and rogues certainly do NOT as a rule beat warlocks one on one.
I'm not exactly sure what your point is: Is it, "warlocks are perfectly balanced, there is no reason for any reductions in class capabilities?"
I'm obviously not going to convince you of anything, nor is that my goal, I just think that a large portion of the player base feels that warlocks are too strong as a class and reducing their damage through a chance in resilience mechanics is a good way of bringing them in line with how the other classes scale in PvP.
I'm not sure that 5v5 is "real arena" while 2s and 3s are not. 3s certainly do not seem vastly inferior in design to 5s to me.
Also, changing resilience to include DoT damage has nothing to do with damage coefficients. You are saying they would need to be raised to make this change fair. I believe the point is that the current state is one of imbalance where DoT attacks do too much relative damage to direct damage.
Sorry but DoT effects can be dispelled hampering or even shutting down thier damage.
DoT effect are also too slow to suprise healers. Healers have plunty of time to put a heal or two on while burst can kill things during cc or silence effects on a healer.
Shadow resistance plus resilence too would mean the end of warlocks in the arena and s-priests too. Everybody would have a specalized set with both stats stacking on each other. All that is needed then is a gear change macro when you see who it is your fighting before you enter combat.
Want to make DoTs effected by resilience? Ok fine make UA trainable and make S-priest dots have a much higher dispell resistance then they have now.
Making dots reduced by the same amount of damage resiliance reduces crits by would really fuck warlocks imo.
Affliction warlocks damage is almost exclusively from DoTs, and even with Shatter I don't think you can argue that Resiliance gives any class a 20% damage reduction.
DoTs are fun to complain about because people hate ticking out as they run away, or when someone is out of LoS, but it's a big tradeoff, it's a global for maybe 3k damage on an agony, where an icelance or a fireblast probably crits for around 1500? Maybe a bit less, but that damage is applied instantly, and you can't stop it, it already happened, whereas CoA is over 24 seconds, and can be decursed at any point during the duration.
Warlocks are extremely powerful 1v1 w/ the right pet, preperation, and plenty of shards, but I really just don't see them as overpowered in 5v5, and if that kind of a nerf went in for 5v5, I see a lot less warlocks being on successful 5v5 teams, and almost all of them speccing away from Affliction to Felguard, and going back to classic outlasting matrixes, which would also pretty much mean the end of Shadowpriests in 5s, as the only synergy they really have is with warlocks, and without UA to protect their debuffs and the powerful DoTs of the lock / shadowpriest, I just don't see it being sucessful.
Yes i'm biased, yes i'm a warlock, but I still think, if anything needs to be nerfed, it's a warrior.
One other solution would be to change the DoT coefficients back to the way they were, or AT LEAST make it so you can't get partials on your dot ticks once they're already up to give affliction locks a chance against Shadow Resist teams.
Affliction warlocks give up a ton of survivability to the ability to put pressure on multiple people with dots the are protected, giving them -20% to ALL their damage (while your non crit attacks don't suffer at all) is extreme overkill.
You don't really see people complaining about felgaurd warlocks, because their DOTs are so easily removed for a fraction of the mana cost with even being able to do some damage.
DOTs when coordinated can cause insane pressure but you have to understand the amount of control that is given up as a result.
You can see your warrior bring someone below 50% Cspell a healer and blast a CoC + Fireblast + ice lance on which ever nova or even AE , on demand burst that can't be stopped no matter how many people are on you.
A warlock in the same situation blows a shadowburn if spec'd for it maybe get off a 700 damage searing pain and prays the DOT ticks and the warrior are enough to finish the job.
How bout you guys try playing a healer(pala/pri) vs those 4dps caster teams and then tell me "dots are easily removed". One wasted gcd and your target is dead.
I don't really feel resistance gear belongs in PvP. I argued vehemently against it back before spell penetration was added thinking that penetration would dry up or not scale as well as resistances...which is pretty much true. I think this is a separate issue to the resilience and DoTs matter though.
I don't really mean to complain about dots because it is the flavor of the month thing to bitch about in WoW. And if I was going to bitch about anything, it would certainly be 2xWar matrices (warriors SHOULD do more burst than AP mages clearly) as that shit is a total joke sometimes.
Note that I don't really make the point that resilience SHOULD affect dots just that I'm fine with the change. I've stated before that I'd rather see resilience act to reduce crowd control duration than just be a generic "take less damage" stat.
I'm in favor of game changes that improve class balance, which I've previously defined as the expected relative performance of classes.
You do know that the mage combo you listed with COC FIREBLAST NOVA LANCE AE or whatever does like 4500 tot. over like 8 seconds?
Actually, I do think that 400 resilience might be pretty close to 20% mitigation in short games considering how resilience affects mages. ^^ (Insert whine about how mages get fucked by resilience here)
nah raddy, it is 'fair' that 1 point of resillience against a mage gives you 70% more critical bonus reduction than it does against melee
nice post, as usual.
I think the problem is just how UA works, not on dots per se..
sounds a weird choice to me nerfing dots w a resilience change
My main is a druid (therefore I have a 0% chance vs warlocks), but I think this change is in poor taste because:
1) Warlocks are one of the worst represented 5v5 classes. They were just starting to show potential due to survivability through gear. It is in extremely poor taste to nerf one of the worst 5v5 classes, even though everyone knows warlocks are ridiculously OP 1v1.
2) To me it's another signal that Blizzard will protect warrior dominance at all aspects of the game. 4 DPS teams are popping up in order to counter the ridiculously overpowered warrior class by killing them first. Warlocks have a big role to play in that 4DPS strat. And as soon as that strategy starts to get popular, Blizzard steps in and announces their intention to mitigate it. Anytime warrior dominance in this game is threatened (PvE or PvP), Blizzard gets on that shit faster than anything you've ever seen.
I played a shadow priest/lock combo (as the shadow priest) in 2v2 and 3v3, so I know where you are coming from raddy. I feel like the problem is less the dots themselves, but more the way UA works, like the other guy had mentioned. When I play as a holy priest, and someone slaps UA on myself or whoever, it is seriously bad news. My choices are: 1) dispel the dots and possibly die/silencing myself doing it, or 2) don't dispel the dots and die anyway. Yay! I don't know if we need resilience on dots, but maybe nerf the UA damage and silencing effect. I don't know, just tossing out ideas here.
will this affect ignite doubly?
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