Still waiting zzz. I'm off to watch Dark Knight again this morning, but while trolling forums, I saw a post on the current "dangerous" abilities in WotLK Beta -- it's not that interesting, but fuck you:
Death Knights
Blood Strike: Hit for 60% weapon damage plus 311 (talented) for each disease effect on the target. A DK specced for it has 3 diseases up. Ten DKs in a raid have 30 diseases up, making this hit for 9k, non-crit. Needs a cap on diseases that benefit it.
Druids
Flourish: Heals 4410 over 7 seconds to 5 people for only 1125 mana, instant cast with no cooldown. (3.92 healing/mana, 19.6 w/ 5 targets)
Compare to:
Prayer of Healing: Party members only, 2091 to 2209, 3 second cast, 1840 mana. (1.17 healing/mana, 5.8 w/ 5 targets)
Circle of Healing: 5 people for 684 to 756, 730 mana, instant cast with 6 second cooldown. (0.99 healing/mana, 4.9 w/ 5 targets)
Beacon of Light: All raid members in 10 yards of target, 2000 over 15 seconds for 2330 mana, 1.5 second cast, no cooldown. (0.86 healing/mana, 4.3 w/ 5 targets, 21.5 w/ 25 targets)
Grants better, more mana efficient AOE healing than any other healer can put out. The only way for another spell to match Flourish's mana efficiency is to hit 25 targets with beacon of light.
Nourish: Heals for 1883 to 2187, +20% if you have a HoT on the target (you're a druid, you do), 1.5 sec cast, 600 Mana. (4.07 healing/mana, 1628 HPS)
Compare to:
Flash Heal: 2054 to 2386, 775 mana, 1.5 sec cast (2.86 healing/mana, 1480 HPS)
Lesser Healing Wave: 1606 to 1834, 965 Mana, 1.5 sec cast (1.78 healing/mana, 1147 HPS)
Flash of Light: 585 to 655, 420 Mana, 1.5 sec cast (1.48 healing/mana, 413 HPS)
Better mana efficiency and HPS than any other spell of equivalent speed.
Hunters
Invigoration + Cobra Strikes: Invigoration means that whenever my pet crits with a special, I gain 2% mana. Cobra strikes means that 60% of the time that I crit, my pet's next 3 specials crit. I have 30% crit rate and use steady shot 6 times every ten seconds. Assuming my pet receives no crits just at random on its own, I'll get 6% mana returned every 10 seconds. I now have infinite mana, go me.
Mages
I see no huge issues, aside from the fire tree sucking.
Paladins
Sheathe of Light: Grants 30% of AP as spell power and applies a HoT equal to 60% of the amount healed whenever a heal crits. This talent is high enough up that you can forgo basically just Beacon of Light to take this, along with the 5% crit rate. If it isn't moved down, beacon of light won't be worth taking even with how good it is, which will be lame. A sample spec.
Priests
Nothing sticks out, that I see.
Rogues
Hunger for Blood: Dispel a magic or bleed effect from yourself for no energy with no cooldown (plus some other stuff). A free, instant cast, spamable dispel will get nerfed, I think.
Shamans
Elemental Oath: Your spell crits grant a stacking 2% buff to spell crit chance/spell crit damage for your entire party. Stacks to 3, lasts 15 seconds. This comes out, effectively, as +6% crit and +6% crit-damage for your party at all times, 9% crit with totem of wrath. Will get nerfed to either a 2-stack, or 1% per level of the stack (possibly stacking higher, then).
Warlocks
I see no specific ability that will get the nerfbat.
Warriors
Vigilance: Grants one target 5% dodge and 10% threat reduction, lasts until canceled. Whenever they are hit, your taunt is refreshed. I think that, if the 10% threat reduction isn't increased, this will be too good of an ability for off-tanks to use on maintanks.
There's obviously other stuff such as Shadowdance (2min CD triple vanish), Winter's Grasp, Improved Soul Leech, Hunting Party, Sanctified Wrath, Repentance, Sacred Cleaning, Brambles, Paralysis, Spirit Link, and pretty much every single DK talent. =p
Post stolen from jame on WotLK Wiki.
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51 comments:
Would you pay for a beta key?
Also, wtf druids.
@anon: yes LOL
Druids are high quality pve healers with fantastic regen, the highest on-demand burst healing in the game and the largest variety of hots to keep your tank alive during raidwide CC.
Just because some shaman can spam chain heal and top WWstats doesn't mean druids arn't absolutely amazing healers in pve.
Also, these mana-efficient uuber heals are scary from a pvp perspective; why blizzard gives the most mobile and efficient heals to the most mobile healing class is beyond me.
http://chuckg.org/dump/2008/workingasintended.jpg
"that's a message to every betatester out there"
you say that as if $500 is a lot. well, I guess if you are still a school kid it is.
^This argument makes me laugh. Would you waste 500 bucks on a beta key if you don't get one? No? Not selling it is exactly the same thing.
Fuck, show me a single rich person that would just throw $500 out the window.
Enjoy rationalizing your waste of money.
So let me get this, beta is so attractive that someone wants $500 for a key. Keys are hard to come by and if you like the game you will want to play it. So, give up the key and sit with thumb in butt till WLK is released and have no impact on game balances and get $500 that you will waste on something.....or play beta and enjoy it and cause others to go green with envy. Sounds like a win/win for whoever gets a beta key. Must suck to sit there trying to rationalize the decision when you don't have one.
^ http://cgi.ebay.com/Wrath-of-the-Lich-King-Beta-Key_W0QQitemZ220258842074QQihZ012QQcategoryZ106453QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
feel free to bet on my auction brah.
400-500 on a key is reasonable. Shit, that's like only 1.5 bottles.
I guess if you dont have a job and live home with your parents, 500$ is alot of money. But if you have an average job and spend like 10-20+ hours a week on WoW, 500 $ isnt that much - considering the ammount of value you get out of it. I dont live in the US, but compare it to something like a ticket to the movies which is aprox 2 hours. Considering WoLK is still far away, I would say you are getting your moneys worth without a doubt.
Wtb edit function.
The whole point of me mentioning the part where I dont live in the US, was also to say "I have no idea how much a ticket cost."
Where I'm from, its about 25$ for a ticket. So unless I really suck at math, which I probably do, after 40 hours of play, you basically got the same value of entertainment - I think...
As someone with a job paying significantly above average salary in an area with below average living costs, I think anyone downplaying the value of $500 for a beta ticket either has: 1) more money than sense or 2) likes to pretend they have.
The BM hunter stuff is crazy for PvE but I don't see it being a huge issue for PvP.
I like how he thinks that Hunting Party is overpowered though. Ahah. Hahaha. As if any PvP hunter in their right mind would sink more than 35 points in survival AT MOST.
mage new talents? couldnt have been more boring. blizzard did it again. Frost is even more concentraded in frostnova / frozen effects, 4-5 talents that are extremily similar.
lifebloom has hps/hpm stats that embarass the other healers, if I recall correctly, why would it change in wotlk?
Teach us how to play the stock markets, Raddy!
I'm poor =(
http://www.break.com/index/sea-doo-in-the-jacuzzi.html
this guy just spent $500 on a beta key
I thought Hunger for Blood was 30 energy?
Dunno Raddy frostfire bolt has some problems, it's pretty hilariously overpowered.
hunger for blood costs 30 energy
Read the description of hunger for blood
The energy cost is refunded if you dispel something. That means 51 assassination rogue will be COMPLETELY impossible to snare/root.
Nerfbat inc
Everyone should just relax. The beta is very much out of whack in several areas and multiple classes are quite overpowered. Changes are coming, and there will be quite a few of them. Wars, priests and shammys are about the only classes that don't need serious work right now to fix broken talents. However, they all still need work and are no where close to going live right now.
Winter's Grasp only gets a footnote? That talent will give icelance spam a whole new meaning.
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=53489 is pretty gay but even without that pallies 1round everybody because of the new judgement system. If a pally gets in repentance range of you, you're dead unless you're another pally.
ps - lf buddies, pvp alliance
Oppo is a dumb fuck whos never pved past kara. In actual pve druids may be good healers, but shamans, priests and paladins far outclass them. The only time i can see a druid outhealing other equally skilled healers is in a 2-3 tank, high sustained damage, 0 raid damage fight, which has never occured. A druids regen isnt any better than other healers besides mabye a haste geared shaman and our burst healing has a 3 min timer and swiftmend requires shitastic rejuv and is only really efficent when added on the last tick.
TlDR version: Druids are worse pve healers than their alternative because the majority of high end raids are 80% fast unpredictable(unprehotable) raid damage and 20% bursty tank damage. Basically, hots are too slow
wrote this all during trash
random wws pages:
http://wowwebstats.com/egw6beva46umq
Way behind on overheals. Ahead of all the priests/pallys.
Only thing ahead of him are shamans, but I already said chain heal was capable of that, no suprise there. over Twice the overhealing % of the druid anyhow.
brut wws off EJ druid forum:
http://wowwebstats.com/
im2rchroq5gxq?s=3731-4329
http://wowwebstats.com/
qqeinn5ll56c3?s=1930-2500
YA DRUIDZ SUCKZ.
Here's some KJ wws
http://wowwebstats.com/
ch3ga2i1oup4a?s=18251-18472
Druid top healing. With less overheal than the 3rd place sham. lulz.
FLUKE! Lets look at the other attempts
http://wowwebstats.com/
ch3ga2i1oup4a?s=17537-17916
druid top...
http://wowwebstats.com/
ch3ga2i1oup4a?s=17035-17205
druid top...
http://wowwebstats.com/
ch3ga2i1oup4a?s=16320-16680
seeing a pattern here...
With the exception of kalecgos/alythess, druids are MORE than capable of consistently topping healing (and staying off the top of overhelaing) on these boss fights.
I'm not surprised, however, that you feel like fights such as these have never occurred. But i'm hearing good things about the uuber-pve-powerhouse guild 'Anonymous.' GL on bank tab 2.
Does WWS accurately calculate overhealing from HoTs?
The reason I ask is because last I checked HoTs weren't accurately reported in the combat log. If someone is at full life and you cast a rejuv (or a renew) on them then they'll gain the buff, but no messages will show up for healing unless the target is actually missing life.
Previously if a person was full life and you put a hot ticking for 1k on them the first tick would do *zero* overhealing, if they then took 300 dmg, the second tick would do 700 overhealing and the remaining ticks (assuming they took no additonal damage) would do *zero* overhealing.
That means a spell that "heals" for 4 or 5k did an incredible 300 points of healing. However, the log would only show "overhealing" of 700.
This reporting is why druids often had incredibly low overhealing because only direct heals and partial hot ticks could result in overhealing being shown. It's also why "renew" overhealing for priests was very low.
Since the only direct heals a druid cast include regrowth (the initital hit), swiftmend (15/13sec cd) and HT(/boggle), it makes it very hard for a druid to get high on overhealing "meters", but doesn't change the fact that they are wasting mana and wasting "healing" on someone that doesn't need it.
Technically the "bloom" of lifebloom can overheal, but that is attributed to the person receiving the "bloom", so that only adds to the druids "overhealing" when they cast lifebloom on themselves. There are also item like SSO neck that heal/overheal, but that'd be a very small fraction of total healing.
Maybe this has changed and if so I'd be interesting in seeing new results. Back in the day though it was possible to roll 3 stacks of lifebloom on 2 targets for 5 minutes that took no dmg and get credit for zero overhealing.
There are obviously still some issues with heal reporting because of effects like lifebloom's bloom and PoM healing, but if HoTs still aren't reported properly that'd skew the results big time. *shrugs*
Hots don't tick when the player is at full hp.
If HoTs still don't register when a player is at full hps then that's why the overhealing numbers are so skewed.
Being able to cast a 5k heal with little risk of overhealing and being able to roll 1200+ hps with very small overhealing potential skews the numbers tremendously.
Additionally, the nature of HoTs is what dictates their mana efficiency at max potential being so good. In many cases that potential isn't realized and so the actualized return is lower. (still possible for 'hots' to be too good, but just looking at max numbers is a bad idea)
By not ticking, not only is overhealing not registered...but HEALING is not registered.
These druids are topping healing charts without their hots even needing full utilitzation (depending on just how much of the hot is actually 'wasted', for all we know the druid could just be overhealing less naturally before the mechanic).
If you're the anonymous who claimed he had time under his belt as a raiding druid, then the fact that you don't know basic mechanics like hots not ticking when at full means you were either lying or an idiot.
...although I wouldn't rule out both...
I've proven that Druids CAN and DO top healing meters in endgame pve where it counts. But that's not all, they do so while being mana efficient and highly mobile healers.
"TLDR:"
the statement and mindset "druids are worse pve healers than their alternatives" is sautéed in wrong sauce.
Edited and reposted for clarity and to protect the names of the innocent(?)
I'm not the poster you originally started bashing on, so please feel free to go back to being civil(ish). 8P
I never doubted druids topping the healing meters and have seen it happen plenty of times. None of my statements had anything to do with topping the meters.
Your comments about how low druid overhealing is though and making comments that pointed to this being something of note made me want to verify that overhealing still isn't reported properly. Notice how I stated how it used to work, and then made sure to verify it was still the case. *shrugs*
The mechanics of HoTs though make it incredibly difficult to not overheal a lot. Even if a druid stays entirely focused on only a couple targets for rolling hots there is still a lot overhealing not being accounted for. In a case where a druid attempts to heal some splash damage they will almost always suffer a large amount of overhealing (that doesn't show up). That is just the nature of the mechanics.
None of this has anything to do though with druid viability in pve, op'd in pvp or any other larger conclusions you'd like to jump to. My comments were focused on overhealing only and I even mentioned that it's possible to overcompensate for the mechanics of hots.
TLDR:
1) Be nice, I'm not him/her/it.
2) Thanks for verifying hots still register the same.
3) Druids can definitely top healing meters, and are highly mobile. The overhealing issues discussed above make efficiency claims harder to nail down, but if they aren't going out of mana it doesn't really matter.
Sorry for directing my comments at you then.
DRUIDS ARE OP THOUGH !!!!
THEY ARE OP!!!
Druids are OP in pvp and UP in pve
"I've proven that Druids CAN and DO top healing meters in endgame pve where it counts. But that's not all, they do so while being mana efficient and highly mobile healers. " --- no you havent, you've posted a handful of wws on farmed boss fights. Also check how many of those are partial boss fights and further how many of those druids have shadow priests ^^
Right. KJ FARMED SO IT DOESN'T COUNT!
You've gotta be kidding. Druid topped the healing in the KILL of the last boss in current pve content, as well as the majority of the other bosses in SWP.
But hey, it's on farm! It doesn't count!
The druid was getting fed PARTY BUFFS! THATS UNUSUAL FOR PVE!
My numbers still stand.
If you wanna bitch and moan about 'spriests this' or 'farm that' then be my guest, but my numbers STILL STAND. As does the point.
Seriously, complaining about 'farm' status...that's gotta be the weakest argument yet.
Next you'll be whining that druids were using consumables in a raid of endgame content.
when a boss is on farm it is 100 times easier to prehot as you've already memorized the timers. Furthermore when one healer recieves a fairly large buff (10k mana across a fight) and others don't it will obviously skew the numbers. also as said before, a handfull of wws do not break the rule that druids are typically not as strong pve healers as their alternatives.
So wait, the druid's superior healing didn't count because...he knew...when he had to heal?
But I'll tell you what, instead of arguing with your increasingly terrible reasoning, I'll let you argue with yourself.
You said:
"the majority of high end raids are 80% fast unpredictable(unprehotable)"
Now you say:
"when a boss is on farm it is 100 times easier to prehot as you've already memorized the timers."
You said: "shamans, priests and paladins far outclass them" but have yet to explain why they are constantly behind Boca.
You've come up with a weak-ass 'uh, well, he had a spriest!', but neglected to mention that the pally , who came in at no. 2, did as well, As did the highest shaman.
Squirm and make as many excuses as you want, the truth is that druids are amazing, and if you are attempting to justify your own druid's poor performance relative to raid healing, it's a personal problem and not a class issue.
wow take my words out of context more. This is actually coming from the view of a feral druid tank, i havent been resto since ssc where i did pretty well lol.
Your entire argument consists of strawman and base rate fallacies which wouldn't hold any water outside of the internetlol. I'm not going to go into why a handful of skewed wws don't change the fact that resto druids are rather subpar in pve. Let's say you're right and that druids will do consistently more healing than other healers(they don't), as a raid leader i would not take a druid over any other healer assuming equal gear,equal skill and equal 'me liking them'. Why? because other healer's just have better utility. Ask any top 15 raid leader and they will tell you the same thing. I agree with you that druids are extremley powerful in pvp, but in pve they come across as viable and nothing more.
Gratz on healing SSC.
But really, your argument is moving away from your original points, many of which you later contradicted, into this new vague realm of "raid utility"
How much is a battle rez worth? what difference does ToL aura make on the MT? Qualify stuff like that however you want, but it seems like a weak distraction from the argument that druids are more than capable of very competitive healing on most endgame encounters.
You said:
"Ask any top 15 raid leader and they will tell you the same thing."
After some quick scanning of the current top 15 guilds in the world, a few were conveniently up on the KJ frontpages.
Vis Major, #11 in the world.
http://wowwebstats.com/
prjmtunvpxmso?s=19224-19726
Druid, 2nd place.
Exodus, ranked 5th worldwide.
http://wowwebstats.com/
qjbyrhtoovq13?s=12129-12678
2 druids in the top 4, bested on this occassion only by priests. The pally/shamans are trailing and rocking enormous overhealing.
But hey, if that's not good enough:
SK-Gaming, ranked number 1 in the entire world, according to Wowjutsu.
http://wowwebstats.com/
mzuoalcwqrohu?s=8747-9273
First place healing. Druid.
Good thing you arn't the raid leader, eh?
again with linking a few select wws, arguing on the internet is stupid lol.
Let me put it in perspective for you, Felguard locks, moonkins and mutilate rogues are all viable, but they are inferior to their dps alternatives. If i linked a few wws of them topping meters what would that prove?
Also, just an observation but of the wws you posted, the average healers per raid is 8. The average resto druids per raid is 1. If druids are so amazing in pve why are they're so few of them? and don't go posting a wws of like a 6 tree druid raid lol
oh and I've tanked 3/6 sunwell and dpsed for 5/6
"Felguard locks, moonkins and mutilate rogues are all viable, but they are inferior to their dps alternatives. If i linked a few wws of them topping meters what would that prove?"
I call your bluff.
I linked you druids among the top 15 worldwide guilds competing (and even topping) healing meters in the last fight of the last instance of endgame content.
Show me mutilate rogues, felguard warlocks and doomkins in a top 15 guild (your criterion for legitimacy, iirc) topping KJ dps charts.
Seriously, I showed you a link of the world's-best-guild killing the game's last boss with a druid leading healing and you still think druids are inferior? What do you know that nobody else seems to?
I'll actually go so far as to wager you won't find a mut rogue topping dps for the top few hundred guilds, easy.
Respond with links or don't bother with a reply.
Happy hunting, anonymous.
I've already proven that Direct Heals are more suited to pve healing than hots. And yet all you've given as a response are some links to 'random' wws, no doubt procured through hours of trolling EJ forums.
Posting a few wws won't qualify an argument for you. The only thing you've proven is that druids are capable of sometimes topping meters. This fact doesn't mean they're superior to priests, shamans and paladins.
A druid's alternatives top healing just as much, if not more than they do and I don't have to post a bunch of healing meters to show that. What you posted proved it yourself, revealing carry at most 1 out of a pool of 7-9.
It's not hard to find WWS. I found SK-gaming in a matter of minutes.
Bottom of page 1. >.<
Makes me doubt that you are or were even in a raiding guild at all, since you seem not to know your way around the site and have yet to even post WWS's from your own guild (or even revealed your 'feral druid' of doubtful existence) to confirm anything you've said.
You've also yet to "prove" anything...I don't see the instance where you demonstrated direct healing as being superior to hots.
You've even stopped arguing about the effectiveness of druid healers and started hiding behind the amount brought. If a guild only brings 1 BM hunter, can't he still top dps?
Considering you've yet to post ANYTHING to even remotely back up the things you've said, or even responded to my WWS challenge, I suggest you continue to hide behind your anon tag.
You wanted druids topping healing, I gave it to you.
You cried they weren't in the top 15, I provided.
You say there 'arn't enough' druids in the top 15, and that somehow the druid who consistently tops healing in the world's top guild is NOT topping healing, because there arn't way more druids in the raid?
...?
I've gone to some pretty interesting lengths to make the point clear that resto druids can and do compete on healing, because many people are ignorant of the mechanics and it's nice to dispel the stigma. But it seems that you're dead-set on disregarding even the most obvious and persuasive evidence, so w/e.
I'm still waiting for that top-15 mutilate rogue topping dps, but I won't hold my breath for you to post something to actually BACK UP your statements, anon.
Be more careful next time before you speak about classes and mechanics that you don't fully understand.
Base rate fallacy: using weak evidence to make a probability judgment without taking into account known empirical statistics about the probability
I'll try to make this as simple as possible
Basically, I'm telling you that these WWS only prove that druids are capable of topping meter but that they dont always.
You're trying to make a link between consistent healing superiority and a handful of select cases without explaining the link(mabye there is one?idk)
I've told you that if these cases were 100% representative of the daily raid than raid leaders would understand and pickup more druids based on their 'healing superiority'. Obviously this isn't the case because of how we only see 1 druid per raid.
It's intresting how you tried to turn this but i doubt anyone bought it. The way you attempt to summarize an argument and leave out the links and warrants ,on both your side and your opponents, is pretty funny.
btw complaining that i choose to remain anonymous while you wear the dubious alias "Oppo" is pretty hypocritical. I've never heard of oppo till now so your basically anonymous
Your original argument:
"Druids are worse pve healers than their alternatives"
Your new argument:
"druids are capable of topping meter but that they dont always."
So you've gone from an argument of straight-up inferiority to one of not-complete superiority.
Well, since I never anywhere said that druids were the best (I've merely maintained that they were 'high quaility' and capable of competing and topping healing)...
...Glad you admit that druids are more than capable of topping healing meters! Yes, I agree, they really are an amazing class.
um no, nice job at selectively taking out quotes and acting as if they're standalone arguments.
You've pretty much dropped every point and conceded the truth that I've been pushing all along that druids are inferior to their alternatives.
So you've conceded your original statement - a standalone argument, btw - to something in line with my original statement - another argument...
But somehow I've said / intimated that druids are inferior?
...?
I honestly think you're trolling at this point, Either way not worth arguing someone who doesn't understand simple logic.
Simple logic, eh?
A) A Top-15 guild is considered 'legitimate' for the purposes of evaluation. (Your criteria, not mine)
B) The Top guild in the world (among many others) has a druid that consistently tops (or comes in second) in healing in the majority of their encounters.
C)...
Therefore,
D) "Druids are inferior to their alternatives"
Please explain C to me.
Our argument is exceedingly simple.
You feel druids are inferior in pve. I feel they are exceptionally capable. The resto druids in the top guilds consistently perform well above the average for the healers.
You can argue with me, but to argue with solid evidence is ridiculous.
"B) The Top guild in the world (among many others) has a druid that consistently tops (or comes in second) in healing in the majority of their encounters."
Where did you get this conclusion? Cause a handfull of wws didnt prove it lol
"B) The Top guild in the world (among many others) has a druid that consistently tops (or comes in second) in healing in the majority of their encounters."
Where did you get this conclusion? Cause a handfull of wws didnt prove it lol
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