Sunday, January 11, 2009

Dear Vishak

You make me feel warriors are overpowered.

Ming's most recent post, here, points out that the top 100 of the 2v2 bracket is now 43% paladin/DK, a level of imbalance never before seen in WoW, and if you've been forced to listen to my nonstop bitching and raging for the past week, you know I'm well fucking aware of the ubiquity of this comp.

We're still running double Arcane mage 2s, which is definitely cheese, but no double Arcane team has cracked top 100, in fact, none is in the top 350. After playing 400+ games on this comp, I understand why.

Basically double Arcane earns a free win against a handful comps in Ogrimmar arena. Almost any non-paladin single DPS healer can be killed within 10 seconds of the game's beginning by having both mages blow both sets of Mirrors, and simply IWINing the single healer through 8 seconds of Imp CS. At the same time, Dalaran Sewers have such brutal LoS problems that against any reasonable comp, it is nearly a guaranteed loss.

Holy/Unholy is basically impossible without extreme luck in any map. It's to the point where we have a strategy that is relatively easy to counter, but we probably manage to win 1/4 of these matchups still simply due to the fact that every kid who plays this comp is fucking terrible.

Strat:

Imp CS split between both on the start, barrage and drop ghoul, sheep+slow on the dk, if possible get an opening poly on pally too. Burn a global or two on Spellstealing DK as the ability to grab a freedom off later can be huge. Reset and drink, reapply Mana Shields and Frost Wards.

Phase two requires one mage targetting the Pally with Mirror Image so that Mirrors sheep the DK while both mages attempt to chase down the pally and use cooldowns to force Bubble. Ideally only one mage should blow Cooldowns here. One mage will be taking huge damage due to Death Grip + Strangulate + AMS cleave. After bubble, second mage assists peel as much as possible, mage under pressure rocket boots - > evocate to save his life. (He should be sub 30% even if he basically never eats a melee attack) If there's a gargoyle up, the mage not resetting, must kill it with Barrage+scorch if he has the space, if not, Barrage->reslow someone->Barrage.

Phase three requires killing the paladin but AMZ is still up, or if AMZ was used to protect the paladin last time, then the paladin still has Bubble -- one or the other was used in phase two. If not, you've lost. You repeat the same thing as in phase two, hopefully the DK is pressuring the mage who hasn't burnt boots+escape artist+evocate. Again two Imp CS + a cooldown set on the pally and you should force a bubble. This is nontrivial and basically impossible if the palladin is well positioned however and often you will need to burn rocket boots here just to actually force the cooldown.

Phase four requires managing to get at least a partial reset but now you've got a paladin with no Bubble. The mage who used cooldowns in phase two should now almost have them back but both mages are hurting on health and mana and most games you shouldn't even last this long. Phase four you simply somehow manage to get the paladin and kill him as quickly as possible with one set + Imp CS.

Phase five pits two mages who are likely low on health and mana and completely out of cooldowns against a DK. Just kidding because ghoul rez is probably back up and he will ghoul rez his teamate. Phase 5 involves killing the ghoul and getting CC on the DK and resetting once again.

Phase six involves finally killing the DK, often one of the two of you will be dead by now, but a single mage who was able to get a reset shouldn't have much trouble here. When he AMZs, reset again, or when he gargoyles, kill it and reset.

Now. IS THAT FUCKING RETARDED OR WHAT?

Double Arcane also has significant problems with any team with paladin healer. Rogue/Paladin, BM/Paladin, Feral/Paladin (Totally impossible), and unexpectedly, Warrior/Paladin.

Warrior/Paladin is interesting if the warrior is fury. Intercept->HF->Intercept is extremely dangerous and generally the warrior does so much damage and is such a devastating peel for the paladin that you can't ignore him well and focus the paladin. And as much as people complain about 7k Barrage Crits and 9k Pyros, these require multiple long cooldowns, I've been autoattacked for over 5000 and Bloodthirsted for nearly 8000. Beyond praying for amazing MI polymorphs or a gib on the paladin before he bubbles, I'm pretty clueless on how one would ever beat this comp as double Arcane. (Stoicism is cool bro) Freedom makes using Slow to cover poly impossible very often and once poly can't resist a cleanse and buy you an extra global or two without the warrior raping face, I'm not really sure you can do much.

Feral Druids seem like a sleeper class to me, at least in the small brackets. Their damage and survivability are quite high, though they do have pretty severe mana limitations. I'm not really sure if it is metagame or balance that limits their success currently.

I don't feel as Ming does that the problem is just DKs -- he's of the belief that paladins are mostly fine. Fifty percent representation in the top 100 isn't fine. They're the best healer in both short and long games, provide the best support to their teammates, and provide unbelievable offensive support even as Holy. DUMB.

Nerf everything.

18 comments:

Soap said...

Glad to see you're back.

I feel the same way.

Bring back TBC arenas. They sucked. But I like them more than Wotlk arenas.

Wizardspike said...

Having also played around 100 games as double arcane, i agree with everything.
Our DK/Pala strat is generally the same - kill pet, attempt to kite DK, get 1 mage to blow CD's to make the paladin bubble and after that go for the kill.

Haven't played against feral/pala, but i really think rogue/pala is another combo that is brutally impossible, if they know what the hell they are doing.
Rogue opens on a mage (lower hp/less pvp gear target preferred ofc) with ambush+mutilate+evisc and runs into a vanish.
Now, if you didn't block after the ambush, you are likely at under 30% health or completely dead if he crit his evisc and CB'd the mutilate. (This happened to me once - he sapped me, we were both waiting for the paladin to make an appearance and when the rogue ambush opened on me, i started running while still mounted and got destroyed before i knew what happened - in 3 seconds flat)
Generally we deal with rogue+healer with a similar strat as we do with dk/pala - 1 mage blows CDs on rogue to make him cloak and the second one blows them asap once he is slightly injured or the paladin is doing some hardcore los'ing.
But if the rogue plays hard to get and you can't force cloak with him vanishing after the 3sec opener, you're shit out of luck because you will be ghosted and there is almost nothing you can do about it.

Got as high as 1970 but also got dk/pala, rogue/pala to drop the ball to 1850'ish.

Anonymous said...

it's a free win against any team without a paladin healer

that would normally mean that it's a top comp, but since every fucking team has a paladin healer, the comp tends to be pretty poor

if they ever get around to balancing holy paladins with other healers, they will need to nerf the fuck out of arcane

sry--2 players capable of doing 6 seconds of chained silence and easily 30k damage in that silence are practically impossible to beat unless you have an immunity, or they have downs

Kzn said...

Paladins are broken currently only because of the immunities, not because they are actually broken as a class. When/if damage slows down and gibbing healers through blanket silences is no longer a viable option, and hunters can actually be peeled, etc, shamans will in all likelihood be the best healers in the game.

Anonymous said...

funny how fury or prot became pvp viable specs, while arms are good for 3/3 or 5/5 (actually for 5/5 only but w/e)
dropped war 2 days ago leveling dk. cant stand the pain, rly.

samuelbeckett said...

I new a Vishak in college. He was a douche.

Regrets said...

Raddy, ever tried SHS ambush Coldblood rogue? 21/0/50 with arcane mage(or even frost tbh)? Every rogue is so focused on mutilate atm.
The good part about shs coldblood and daggers is that the rogue has 70% chance to do a 8k ambush followed with 100% chance to do a 7k evisc, count white hits for 1-2k and a pom pyro ontop. People waits for mutilate, that kills you in 3gcd, ambush evisc kills you in two. And it has no travel time(aka shs).

Pros, you can double dismantle any melee class.(Hello dismantle removing ranged wpns of hunters aswell). Forcing bubble on pala shouldnt be an issue, then just iceblock clos vanish, repeat. Dead paladin. Silence dk first rotation, second rotation blind->sheep dk.

Cons,
Backstab dmg is horrid, at best your looking at 3.9k crits when hes below 35% hp. (afaik the glyhp is still bugged. Outside of your 3x ambushes and 2x cb eviscerates, dmg is poor, esp compared to mutilate. But, most games end during the 15k burst in 2gcd from rogue time frame.

So if you spec this as a rogue and fail to drop a holadin in a bg with your openers, have fun because there is no way on earth you can kill him.

Anonymous said...

Since I know Radikal is a highly skilled mage I wonder why he doesn't even consider the traditional tactic to kill the warrior in the Warrior/Pala set up. Attack warrior, force bubble with sheeps (or CS if the Pala is so stupid and atempts to cast anything = no bubble = dead warrior), chain sheep warrior an reset, kill warrior with new dr sheeps and focus counterspells on Pala.
As Mage/Retadin we even found Holy/Unholy teams in which the DK was stupid enough to totally LOS his healer (who sat in an AMF) and die to our burst (I don't know if he wasted his damage reduce cooldowns at random at the beginning of the game). That was a strange feeling.

Raddy said...

You already can't kill a shaman or Druid that is very good in anything but org if his teammate isn't useless.

You can't kill a good healer in sewers

Pressuring war to force bubble and swapping is the best strat but in some maps this is def hard/unreliable

I think people somewhat are overestimating arcane damage

Anonymous said...

with around 800 resilience, I've taken 13k-15k damage in imp. CS

with 2 mages, you should honestly be able to get a kill easily on anything without a bubble

you'd really notice how insane the damage is if you played more teams without holy paladins

Anonymous said...

Raddy, my 2 mages are at 73 ATM, I'm going Arcane spec for 2v2 arena. I'm a dualboxer aiming to get 1700-1800 in 2v2, do you think my ability to burst someone at the EXACT SAME TIME on both mages will help me maybe get further than you guys? I can honestly say that 2-3 GCDs should be enough for me to drop someone 100-dead.

Raddy said...

Even though Arcane mage damage output is some of the easiest in the game to get off -- you still have to deal with stuns/silences/deathgrips/snares or roots out of los/rocketboots.

We certainly don't just try to brute force zerg healers, it simply doesn't work with high enough consistency. Most of the time you are pressuring/kiting the DPS and trying to force the healer to commit to a location where you can gib him -- you usually assess whether the healer or DPS is a better target at that point depending on what defensive CDs have been spent.

I'm not denying that Arcane is pretty easy to play and is fucking retarded in Ogrimmar against many teams, but I really doubt anyone on a non-terrible battlegroup is going to call it a top 5 2s comp before or after 3.08.

PS Why does nobody bitch about frost RNG? It might not be sudden death bad but FoF + Frostbite really determine the outcomes of games.

Anonymous said...

Concerning getting the damage of, for 2 arc mages wouldn't a boomkin make a perfect 3rd? He can help find a target in 3s in stealth and then everyone pops out and just sorta one shots things.

Anonymous said...

how are you losing to dk/paladin as double arcane? we're nearly 100% versus them, it's the only thing keeping us highly rated since we get shit on by hunters and rogues. you wrote an essay for something that is stupid simple. you kill the pet, both of you dps the paladin and force a bubble, and you kill him. how is that hard? they have virtually no way to stop it. especially if you have ea and boots.

Anonymous said...

nerf dks
nerf pallies
nerf rogues
nerf mages
nerf feral druids
nerf bm hunters
nerf warriors (ALREADY DONE LOL)
buff warlocks
buff spriests (YEA I WANT MORE MENISMYFORTE INTERVIEWS LOLOL)

Anonymous said...

Pretty sure Tugget was playing his guy against you two.

Natcho said...

I like how you defend Arcane/Arcane lol. I do agree with you on the nerfing of paladins.

Pigmonkey said...

I love how they gave paladins everything a shaman would need to survive.