Vegas, Bellagio poker room, 4:45 AM.
You shouldn't play this late into the night -- you start playing like total shit. Everyone gets cocky and stupid after four. You're thinking you'd rather be getting a little cocky and stupid in your hotel suite than grinding out this -- Is that Sammy motherfucking Farha? Wow, fuck that guy. Last time you were here you sat down at the Omaha 150-300 just to see what the big leagues were like. They were like dropping 2500 bucks in 2 hours, but you didn't give a fuck as you did manage to take a big enough hand off Farha for him to give you his fuck-off-small-time smirk and take a break for dinner. Faggot.
Raise it up. You're AH-2H on a 2 hearts flop with no pair. Calls around. You hit the heart on fourth. Raise it up.
The competition is more of the same. Same losers, different table, different night. You're here stag so you're tampon-shaped 3 year old Shuffle is all you've got for camaraderie. One earpiece in, one out, as always. I'll stand in front of you, I'll take the force of the blow. Ugh.
The tables have been softer the past few months. Everyone talks about how the death of online has meant the death of the "casual" player. Casinos are now all sharks, no fish. They say these things. Fucking retards. There's nothing casual about guys who sit at card tables at five in the morning -- some of them are just bad. That's life.
Most of these guys never really learnt to play. They've watched movies and skimmed books. Poker is a math game. Deny it all you want. Play long enough without strong math and your previous good fortune will come back to fuck you. Well, it should and I hope it does.
Poker math starts out simple.
Everyone talks outs in poker. Outs are cards that win you the hand. If you hold two hearts and the board shows two hearts, and you think a flush is a winning hand, you have nine outs from your hearts flush. (Thirteen total - four known cards) This is simple shit. People say "nuts" instead of winning hand. Yeah, that sounds cool. Nuts. "I thought I flopped the nuts." Coolio.
You can figure out your outs with all sorts of hands, but it's meaningless till you can convert the outs back to pot odds. Pot odds describe the ratio of your next bet or call to the size of the pot. If you're on fourth street with nine outs, and you know there's forty-six unknown cards in the deck, you have a nine in forty-six chance of making that winning flush. Nine in forty-six is just under twenty percent, so it's like five to one odds needed to call. That's to say if it's raised thirty bucks to you, you need the pot to hold at least one fifty to make the flush draw call.
If you're landing in deep draws without calling odds, you need to play less fucking spec hands. Spec hands are crap like Ace-X suited or suited connectors. People get seriously wet for that shit. Especially those Rounders wanna-bes. They get off on visions of straight flushes. You get off on visions of -- that can wait.
You're thinking about going into a discussion of implied odds and discounted outs. Fuck it, it's late. That shit is overstated anyways. More excuses to think qualitatively, a.k.a suck at math, and avoid doing any number work.
Most players have two problems. They poorly understand how to calculate pot odds well for when there's more than one card remaining and they fail to incorporate all the social "reading" aspects of the game into evaluating the odds. Well, guess what, it ain't that fucking hard.
Consider this scenario:
You hold 8D 8H.
You raise under the gun. Very tight player early position raises. Loose aggressive calls. You call. Three players see the flop.
Flop: AD 8S 4D
Before going further, we have a made set with a pretty useless backdoor flush draw. If two diamonds fall that don't pair the board, a diamond flush is likely a winning hand, but an 8 is extremely unlikely to be good enough unless we can push out the other diamonds.
Now, before going all math geek faggot at the table, what do your opponents hold? Think back to preflop. Tight player early to reraise means he's holding a top hand, AA-KK-QQ-AK-JJ, maybe AQ or 10s, if he's feeling peckish. Obviously you have to adjust your opinion on what he's likely to play by what you've seen him play, his personality, his recent hands or lack thereof, etc. But honestly, tight, Asian geezers all play the same hands the same way. The other guy, the loose aggressive caller, no matter how reckless, unless retarded, is not calling a geezer without a medium tier hand, minimum, or a spec hand that profits from lots of players and he's hoping for the blinds to limp. Figure the same hands as the geezer, with 6s-9s, A-X suited as minor possibilities. But what about other hands? You have no reason to suspect other hands until you get some better information.
You don't know that much yet. That's why you continuation bet. Your hand is also baller. Books will tell you check raise hands like this -- retarded advice. You learn a ton on third.
You bet, geezer reraises, loose aggressive folds. Call or raise?
The loose aggressive folded. That means he either didn't spike his set (he held a mid pair and didn't hit), he realized his A-X wasn't good (he didn't two pair it), or he played some nonsense garbage that you don't care about. The ace of the A-X you do care about. Now, you put the geezer on a bunch of top tier hands before, let's reevaluate the respective relative chances he holds those cards: (from weakest to strongest)
10-10: Impossible. Could not reraise second to act with the ace on board. Very low probability especially from a tight player.
A-Q: Reasonable. He could very well think this is the strongest ace out there. A reraise will let him know if this is the case.
J-J: Unlikely. Some players like to long play hands like this because they retardedly hate to fold high pairs even in the face of aces. Very low probability.
A-K: Same as A-Q. Very likely hand.
Q-Q: Unlikely. Again, against the ace, a reraise makes no sense.
K-K: Pretty unlikely. Same as with the other high pairs.
A-A: Based on his play, a very reasonable hand for him to have.
Remember the flop: AD 8S 4D
Now, there's once ace on the board. So, there are three aces left in the deck. There are no visible kings or queens. Therefore, there are three ways to have A-A, twelve ways to have A-K, and twelve ways to have A-Q. (simply 3 times 4) Very naively, geezer has, at this moment in time, about 1/9 chance of aces, and 4/9 chances of the other hands. The fact that our loose aggressive came for the ride to the flop but got out of the way makes me inclined to skew those odds slightly more in favor of the A-Q and A-K hands.
If the geezer is rocking the A-A, only the backdoor flush or hitting a fourth 8 takes the hand. Even if we hit the 8, we need him to not hit the fourth A. This is minor, but thinking about it is good practice. Also, you have to decrease the number of unknown cards in the deck when you start making assumptions about other player's hands -- a lot of people don't do this, they're bad and should kill themselves.
Anyways, so if fourth is an 8, any card but an A on fifth wins you the hand, so forty-three cards on fifth would be a win. This shit ain't obvious, so actually think about it. If fourth is a diamond, then any diamond on fifth or that fourth 8 is a win. There are 10 diamonds to go around on fourth, and assuming you catch one, the nine remaining diamonds plus that fourth 8, make ten cards on fifth wins. If fourth is an A, you're fucked and no cards win the hand for you on fifth. If fourth is any other card, only that fourth 8 on fifth is a win. Holy fuck, that was confusing:
If fourth is an 8, 43 wins.
If fourth is an A, 1 win.
If fourth is a diamond, 10 wins. There are ten ways to get a diamond on fourth, so that's a total of 100 wins.
If fourth is anything else, 1 win. (Just the 8) So, 33 total wins. (Think)
There are 45 unknown cards before fourth, and 44 by the time fifth comes around, thus 1980 total outcomes for fourth and fifth street. Of all 1980 outcomes, 178 win the hand for us. That's about 1/11.
Gosh, wasn't that fun and simple? Consider the geezer holding A-K this time instead, but consider losses because you're ahead in the hand. (It simplifies things always to think of the losing hand)
Remember the flop: AD 8S 4D
If fourth is an 8, 0 losses. (Any card wins)
If fourth is an A, 7 losses. (If geezer catches a fourth A, a second K, or the board pairs the 4, 3+3+1=7) Therefore, 2x7, 14 total losses.
If fourth is a 4, 2 losses. (Anything but an A) Therefore, 6 total losses.
If fourth is a K, 4 losses. (Anything but an A or K on fifth) 3x4, or 12 total losses.
If fourth is anything else, 0 losses.
So, 32 losses out of 1980 outcomes, this is about 1/62. The exact same logic can be applied for A-Q and you get the exact same odds.
So, the geezer either holds a hand where our odds of winning are 1/11, 61/62, or 61/62. That's a huge disparity. This is in explicit detail, but practically speaking, rounding off to cleaner fractions is more realistic. Realistically, these odds become, 1/10, sure thing, sure thing. This is the most precise method of calculating your raw probability of winning a given hand assuming you don't get too maverick with rounding off your fractions.
Combining your odds of winning probabilities with how you read the geezer's hand probabilities, 1/9, 4/9 and 4/9 for A-A, A-K, and A-Q respectively, leaves you with 1/90, 4/9, and 4/9 for your odds of winning, or total odds of approximately 8/9 the favorite. Clearly, all the work to calculate the odds out was a waste of time as the odds are in this instance are almost entirely dependent on the hand predictions you previously made.
So, call or raise the geezer's reraise?
You did the math. You know you're currently the favorite until you have information that changes your estimates of what he's holding. With two raises preflop plus the blinds plus the three raises already in the pot, that's 10.5 bets in the pot. Even if he turned over his hand and showed you the aces, you nearly have the odds to call. The issue is: How does my raising here change the probability distribution of the hands the geezer might hold if he calls or reraises my raise?
There are math dorks out there shitting themselves reading this. It's a very strange idea -- logically, it's obvious. You adapt your expectations of the cards your opponent holds based on his actions as the hand plays out -- this is mathematically strange however as you're somewhat arbitrarily changing your probability distribution over time. This is also why, the math above is technically wrong. To be thorough, you need to model how your estimates of what your opponents holds evolve over time -- finding a good heuristic for this is complicated, and this phenomenon is part of the skill of the poker. This is a complicated topic...
Certainly, if you were to raise and the geezer rerasies you back, you have to adjust your estimate on the likelihood he holds the aces. There is no awesome way of modeling this adjustment. A simple heuristic many players use in limit holdem is they simply double the odds of the dangerous hand (in this case the aces) with every aggressive move the player makes. In this circumstance, that doesn't seem necessary, as even with A-K or A-Q, the geezer could justifiably rereaise you again as these are quite strong hands. The biggest shift in the expected probabilities would be an increase in A-K against A-Q as the possibility that the geezer holds the ace with top kicker has certainly improved. In this hand, a called raise does not significantly implicitly strengthen the caller's hand as the difference in kickers is irrelevant to what you hold.
Is raising now as opposed to waiting for the next card pot maximizing? You hold a strong hand and want to maximize its earnings. There's always a ton of discussion on this topic -- most of it is bullshit. Nobody to my knowledge has covered this very thoroughly and discussed the price of information, the correlation between volatility in hand predictions and hand profitability, etc. It's unclear whether a raise here would damage the further earning potential of the hand, nor is it clear that such a raise strengthens the hands the geezer might hold -- therefore the raise is the right play. You gain information and increase the pot size of a pot you're favored to win. Simple, eh?
That's enough for now. There's a ton of sidepoints and whole topics uncovered that are directly related to these ideas, but it can also be a lot to digest if it's not how you normally view the game.
(Back to normal poker noir next time, but I throw this out there just to curiously see how many poker players I've got reading ^^)
34 comments:
First
GOGOGO RSS FEEDS!
I've played a good bit of poker, i'm not amazing or anything but i do ok. I do much better online when I have more tools at my disposal to help with odds. It is obviously a crutch esp if I were to play live (which I enjoy doing). It is a pretty incredible thought process if you are able to process all that in your head at the table in a reasonable amount of time. What I have to ask though, is this kind of thought process always been second nature to you, or is it a sort of routine you forced yourself into going in whenever it comes back to you to act.
nice
i'll poker.
And then i'll go to work on 'er.
When I play, I fold everything until I get suited high cards or doubles. This is the law of the land.
SNOWMEN.
HOCKEY STICKS.
I DON'T KNOW THE REST.
Speed just comes from reptition. I actually find playing casinos/live much easier as people play much slower and you can take your time thinking the hands over.
i play poker maybe twice a year but i still love it!
i would re raise too and if he have AA he will call an all in :p
WTB more mage post...:(
Dear Mr. Sklansky/Harrington,
you forgot to give the option "fold" ;)
but as you pointed out, playing is pretty much mandatory considering the pot odds and the likelihood of what hes holding.
In general i think you could slowplay it a bit by just calling pretending to be on a flush draw, hoping he bets again on the turn. The problem however is the AD on the board, thus i dont think he will buy that. How could you ever raise in first place and call even a reraise preflop w/out an ace or a pair? If you played super-loose so far the only hand he could give you for that is a KD QD, but you cant really count on convincing him of that.
So its a reraise, and considering hes tight he will with 99.9% chance fold his AQ/AJ/KK (AJ+KK is much less likely but not totally out imo) and to 90-95% fold AK imo. If he reraises again you will know with almost certainty that he has the AA and just throw away. I dont think you will be able to make anymore money there, and i also highly doubt that he will just call.
Nice post. I also prefer limit (we're a small few these days) and you're right about it being a math game. I played before it was cool, quit because it became cool, and now I'm back cause it's slightly less cool. Ok really I'm back because I went to fucking Vegas and had to play at Binions (it's fucking Binions) and got sucked back in. Fuck.
By the way Fulltilt still takes American money.
Then they add in the other 5 decks :'(
good read but i hope you dont worship the odds because while correct at higher limits and against smarted players, these tendencies/odds analysis can be easily exploitable
i am not saying that you, because you are putting people on hands rather than blindly doing the math, but its very easy to push someone off anything if they are relying so much on odds because if they are then this player is:
a) thinking - can fold
b) will fold if given bad odds
c) will rarely bluff/raise, re-bluff, semi-bluff. in other words, if he is c/cing he/she is drawing so bet pot on turn
just my 2cents but regarding the hand - i agree with range you gave him. assuming he has AA roughly 10% of the time and AK/AQ the rest of the time (he is never bluffing/semi-bluffing here but AxKd is a big part of his range here).
anyways, assuming he has TPTK - call flop and c/r turn is a solid line also. you get one more small bet.
i think he slows down a ton if u 4bet flop if he is as nitty as you describe him to be (his range)
"What I have to ask though, is this kind of thought process always been second nature to you, or is it a sort of routine you forced yourself into going in whenever it comes back to you to act."
Play enough hands and you don't have to even calculate this shit anymore, you know the numbers for any range because you've seen everything over and over.
As to the hand...
Maybe a reraise is good here in limit (I assume it is or his preflop 3-bet is probably big enough to deny you set odds), but in NL there's almost no way you're getting a call with a worse hand unless he has some sort of jedi read on you that says KdQd. As is, your 3bet pretty much screams 2pair minimum but with the cards on the board that's not a part of your range so he has to assume you're holding a set.
Even in limit I feel like you're going to get more value out of the hand by calling and seeing turn action unless you have a table image that forces him to call your flop 3bet with TPTK.
The above is 100% my opinion and not necessarily correct, you're obviously solid so I assume you had the reads to make your decision clearly the right one.
Actually I lied, with three people in the pot you've got decent set odds even if he 3bets normally in NL.
The "correct" play is you check the set with an ace flop.
You'll get a raise and then a call most the time from players two and three. You can then raise, and MAYBE even get both callers. If both call, you can discount the chance of anyone holding A-A, and you get a similar amount of information as you would have by continuation betting to start off.
I think playing it as described above has a few problems though:
1) It gives out a ton of information. When you check-raise, you've told the table you hold the 8s, whereas the continuation bet-reraise could honestly be A-K or depending on your play, A-Q. Now it might not matter you've told them you rock the 8s, as they still might have odds to call down the rest of the hand, but it does feel like, by basically turning over your cards, even in limit, you're throwing away some earning power on the hand.
2) It makes your other continuation bets obviously represent bluffs or middle strength hands.
3) It gets you into trouble by allowing the loose aggressive deeper into the hand. Say an ace comes on fourth and he starts raising wildly, now you've got to respect potential crap like AS-4S.
4) It is usually easier to call than fold or raise especially on a weak ace flop. Getting folds or raises = more information than encouraging calls.
The real point of what I'm saying is that you need to attach realistic and meaningful probabilities to the hands players hold instead of saying "I think he is A-A, A-K or A-Q so it's like 1/3 each, right? kk!"
Oh and I play very shitty NL
NL is totally dissimilar. I actually think most players play NL atrociously and there's way more edge in NL. (you'll make way more playing NL)
I've just always been interested in other games more than NL. =\
So about them taxes, rad =p
You failed to mention how you've represented yourself up until that hand. That would help a little in speculating.
Purely from what I've read, I think you've correctly pinned him on his hand of A-K/A-Q and more like suited D from the way he re-raised. He's probably thinking top pair with flush draw is awesome.
I think by re-raising you get more information and calling would let him possibly catch up in the hand. Your calculations indicate this with your assumptions.
tl;dr
Nice post.
Coincidentally I played today for the first time in about a year. Two games online in play money, and I won them both! IN PLAY MONEY! CAN YOU BELIEVE IT!? I'M GONNA GO TO THE WSOP NEXT!
But anyyyywayyy... cool post, it made me think about a couple more helpful calculations... thanks!
The way I played was that the dealer burned a card then flopped a card, burn a card flop a card. Wouldn't that basically throw off the math?
Burn cards don't affect the math at all. They are the same as cards left in the deck. Burning cards was intended to frustrate cheating, but I'm not even sure it really does that.
I play exclusively NL, small-time games with the kids on campus. I focus mainly on how the others are playing mixed with a bit of pot odds if I'm convinced I'm behind and can't skill my way out.
Never considered evaluating odds based on my estimates of other people's hands, but generally speaking the players I hang with are weak enough that it's not necessary to process anything more than their tendencies and the myriad of tells I pick up along the way.
NL is pure finesse, definitely the most enjoyable form of the game as long as the stakes are well within your means.
The correct play would be to call, and wait till 4th to make a decision on the hand. Others may have laid down weak aces, and loose aggressive might have just laid down another one. Those are odds I'm willing to take..
Maybe not correct, but the play I'd make
Calculating odds is easier in limit than nl IMO.
And this type of situation is why I love limping with small pocket pairs (particularly against some average but not terrible players). Low risk and high reward.
The other problem I have with calling instead of raising:
Consider these scenarios and assume four and five give you no help:
He holds A-A and reraises you back. (4 bets) If this happens, you call because you obviously have the pot odds at this point, and will check call the hand down because you fear the aces.
He holds A-A and calls your raise. You will bet fourth, he will raise, and you will call down to showdown.
He holds A-A and you just call on third. You bet on fourth, he reraises, you call. You check/raise on fifth and eventually call.
The case where he reraises, you lose 2 small bets on third, and 1 big bet each on fourth and fifth - 3 big bets lost.
The case where he calls to 3 bets, you lose 1 small bet on third, 2 on fourth, and 1 on fifth. 3.5 big bets lost.
The case where you call to 2 bets, you lose 0 extra bets on third, 2 on fourth, and 1.5 on fifth. 3.5 big bets lost.
So even in the case of the aces, calling is slightly worse off probably than raising.
You can perhaps argue that the early raise reduces you ability to make money against A-Q later in the hand (I think A-K he can and should continue to play aggresively), but I'm curious as to why you'd necessarily think so.
this is the anonymous that replied saying that raising is superior to calling by a bit here
i just wrote a HUGE reply and firefox crashed obv.
in short:
he has AK/AQ (AK much more than AQ as you pointed out) a lot more often than he has AA given that an A is already out. You did the math in the OP.
we can not play this hand vs. a nit with the idea to minimize losses vs. AA. this is kinda scared money imo. we need to max. wins vs TPTK because he has it a lot more often and is felting it just like we are felting our set.
seeing that he is a mindless nit and is married to his AK - just like you said, he will bet/call the flop if u check = 1 more Small bet gained.
whats results?
also, how about a wow-trip to AC? dahis seems to play as well
ended up being a long post after all
I agree exactly and think you summed up what I was trying to express -- trying to collect on tptk is better than loss minimization against the AA!
dear raddy,
results please?!
yours truly
anonymous
also, do you play on tilt/starts at all or just live? i figured since you play at the belagio you must be from the west coast - so much for going to AC.
I always look for people/friends to go with if I can get away from work because i feel like a degenerate going alone and these creeps, the dirt of AC, the retards, the old yappers, the drunks -they drain me completely and i need someone normal to talk to when I am not playing.
@ anonymous asking about outcome of this hand:
In the real hand, I raised, was called, and then had my raises on streets four and five called. He had A-Qd -- nothing shocking.
@ previou anonymous -- Aren't the AC players amazing freakshows? I feel like I could write endlessly on the weirdos you meet at poker tables.
too many Anonymous people huh?
i am the one who posted originally about the hand suggesting a call and then talking about AC. maybe call me A1 or not.
AC is in fact a freak show. As i have said, every time i went there (been there once for a week this summer - dont ask me why or how because the place is complete trash aside from poker but I went there with seven friends so it wasn't that bad) I feel like that place spits me out and I am so dirty after playing with all these retards that I don't even want to share this exp. with any of my friends/family.
you have all these overweight people, weird drunk dudes, people dressed in total crap with atrocious breath and all of them take the weirdest lines ever.
like 2/5nl - raise pre with whatever, flop tp, bet pot, villain calls, bet turn, villain calls. board is like A794 rainbow. river is something retarded like a 2 or a K that changes absolutely nothing. We bet like 125/150 for value, the clown min c/r AI and its like 80 more. I mean - what changed? what are you repping - wtf is this 80 supposed to mean? if he wasn't braindead i'd snap fold but i guess i call...idnk. They will meekly turn over some 3rd pair.
or the classic. retard1 limps UTG+3, MP raises to 20, MP2 calls 20, Hero raises to 75, UTG+3 COLD CALLS 75 - with what are you calling there sir? you think A10, KJ or 55 is any good there?
anyways - check this out....sums it up pretty well
http://forums.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=79194
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