Wednesday, February 27, 2008

Big Ol' Mana Shields

One incoming change in 2.4 that has received little coverage here or anywhere else has been the improvements to Mana Shield. For those way out of the loop, Mana Shield now receives half of your +damage, and in PvP gear, we're talking about 500 more absorbed per shield -- this extra absorption comes at no extra mana cost, and with Improved Mana Shield, it will operate overall at near 1:1 efficiency. Time to put on those level 60 PvP gloves? Probably not, but the change should help pretty significantly in duels and 2v2.

I think that the mage player base is still largely disappointed with what 2.4 offers, but the class is undeniably significantly more powerful than it was a few patches ago. I'm not going to laundry list everything, but: Improved Evocation, Improved Mana Gems, Impved Spellsteal, Improved Mana Shield, Improved Nuke Coefficients, Trainable IB, Icy Veins, Lower Mana Costs, etc. Mages have really gotten the most improvements of any class in the past months -- the question really is, have the changes been effective?

If you look at all of the statistics, probably not. Even after playing priest in 2s for 2 days, I think I'd be more likely to hit 2400 on my priest than my mage. I also have way more versatility in forming viable teams. And I'm not a good priest, or a bad mage. =p

Maybe that's a stretch, but it's a not a crazy one.

A mage brings no healing, no healing debuff, no mana draining, and no defensive dispelling of any significance to a 2s matrix. These are not necessary by any means, and the mage does bring great burst, decent CC, and great survivability (in 2s!) without the need for healing.

I do think mage/rogue is a top 2s team without a doubt. But would that rogue be better with an equivalently skilled priest or druid? Even if I think mage/rogue has perhaps surpassed spriest/rogue and lock/rogue to be the strongest 2dps team, it doesn't change the fact that locks, priests, and rogues all have stronger matrices than 2dps right now. No matter how much I go on and on about mage potential in 2s, the representation has remained unchanged in the past months. But does this really mean much?

A quick diversion -- Mages have never felt as strong (Even Pre-TBC) as they do now in BG type PvP. I've said before that I feel that mages are the best class at leveraging small skill and gear advantages to great effect. Even if a warlock, warrior, or priest is a solid player, in a 1v3 against semi-decent players, they have really not much of a chance -- they just get zerged and can't do much. However, put a s3 equipped mage with good skill against 3 people with 200 resil and 8k hp, and I wouldn't bet against the mage. And this is arrogant and whatever fuck you, but a few months ago, when I rolled up a to a guared flag in AB and saw 3 defenders, I'd hit fraps and hope to get a good clip, now I think, there's only 3. This isn't a testament to my skill or anything, but just the class has scaled pretty out of control in some ways and it looks to continue down that path in 2.4. With cooldowns, an AP/Fire mage can basically kill one target instantly, do huge damage to a secondary, and still have nigh invuln, IB, and a ton of other tricks left -- with pots and engineering in the mix, the potential is huge. It feels very much like playing 28/23 back at 60, except instead of cold snap, you have an IWIN, and honestly, the IWIN is more powerful. So while mages might not be getting the buffs they need to hold number one spots on arena teams, the class is undeniably becoming increasingly generally powerful in PvP -- just not the PvP that matters.

There's a probably a sizable audience out there who thinks that mages are fine, need no improvement and just need to man up to be competitive in top level arena. I felt this way about hunters, not going to lie, and am somewhat on the fence with mages. Hunters ended up receiving both a healing debuff and an offensive dispel to make them more competitive in arena -- mages have thus far received a dozen tweaks without really trying to add new class mechanics. I prefer this style balancing in a sense as it reduces class homogenization, but at some point, I worry that it makes trying to balance the classes a real fuckshow. Say you improve all this crap on mages and without a few core ability changes, mages are still never competitive, are you going to rollback these improvements and give mages a healing debuff? Leave the changes in and the class just starts to get retarded overpowered. Honestly, I think that with a little bit more damage scaling AP+PoM+Pyro could get retarded out of hand, almost to the point of the double trinket days. I get that the mage class is supposed to have tons of tricks and situational abilities combined with devastating burst, but I can't help but feel that our real weakness is lack of good synergy right now and not anything intrinsic to the class itself. These changes are great for pwning noobs in battlegrounds, but it all feels like a precarious balancing act.

47 comments:

Oppo said...

My water brings all the priests to the yard.

Oppo said...

And one more thing: You missed the biggest buff to hunters, the range change. Aimed shot is hot, arcane shot is hax, but deadzone removal is by far the most game-altering buff since, well, the original broken version of the "rampage" talent.

^oo^ said...

yeah, removing deadzone would be like removing spell pushback entirely or via talents (a 3min c/d that can be dispelled by 1/2 the classes in wow is a very gimped version -cough- icy veins -cough-

Mirages said...

Hey dummy, have you even tested mana shield out in the ptr?

I have and I'll give you the results.

I have 1036 spell damage in my pvp gear. That gave me 580 more absorb in my mana shield. So I ask a warlock to shadowbolt me with mana shield on. 1365 absorb. I went from 10036 mana to ~7100. 2730 mana drained and the cost of mana shield of some ~185, I don't remember the exact cost.

You absorb more and you drain more... it is still the biggest POS around.

Whichever moron (probably on the mage forums) who has spread this rumor to everyone that it doesn't use mana for the extra absorb is another POS.

Mirages said...

Another thing, AP PoM Pyro? Are you crazy, have you see what they did to icy viens?

The new arcane PvP spec is Slow + Icy Viens.

Remember that post you made on haste? I think you are bright enough to figure out what I mean...

Raddy said...

I tried the Mana Shield this morning and didn't think I wasn't using extra mana. Did you have Imp Mana Shield? I'll check again. I kind of just tested it out on some mobs outside Shattrah real quick.

Not sure why you prefer Slow to any other arcane/frost build, but I've always hated AP/Frost as I think it's the most fragile mage build by far and is pretty simple to lock down.

Anonymous said...

Mages need dispel resistance bad

Mirages said...

I would only put 11 points into frost. I would never use frost spells unless my arcane tree got interupted during ivy viens.

Go back to when you were talking about haste and think how you can waste your mana in a couple seconds... just don't spread the news please, blizzard nerfs all my ideas.

Raddy said...

Handle that 2pc T5, eh?

lexlexlexlexlex said...

solsolsolsolsolsolsolsolsolsolsolsol

critgemzcritgemzcritgemzcritgemzcritgemz

zgtrinketzgtrinketzgtrinketzgtrinket

PIPIPIPIPIPIPIPIPIPIPIPIPIPIPIPIPIPIPI

Anonymous said...

I kill mages in bgs.

/Mr. Rogue

Anonymous said...

BEND.YOU.OVER.A.MAGE.TABLE

MMMMMMM

/caps

EATSLEEPREPEAT.NET said...

Is it a bad sign when there's two of my colleagues all reading Radikal Noise at the same time I am?

Seriously though, you make a strong point BADikal (c wut i did there?). Mages have traditionally been strong in BG's, but despite all the little changes and adaptations we simply haven't scaled well in arena. Buffs to nukes don't help a large amount in arena, buffs to Spellsteal and Mana Shield only change what are trivial abilities when it comes to offensive/defensive measures in arena and when compared to other classes.

Anonymous said...

Must be nice having Kalgan take up playing your class hey :p

huck said...

just get flame tounge on your dagger...

barrelroll/dwarfgimli said...

resto sham (using flametongue), ret pally, mage is the new ish in 2.4, for reals.

Ryan said...

Think it's kinda weird that mage is currently the only class that has no healing debuff, healing spells, mana drain BUT uses a shitload of mana. We need to get either one of those tbh.

Bregor said...

Quasar's Pyroblast crits you for 4987.
Quasar's Fireblast crits you for 2854.
You die.

lolarena :(

Anonymous said...

The reason mages are represented so low is simple: the playerbase (along with huntards) are horrible players. Terribad crying mages like Radikal whined for buffs and got them, but in the end they realized, you can't buff a terribad player.

At this point if they gave mages an instant cast ability to kill anything in 1 hit from 40 yards away, they would cry that they also need total invincibility, because "mages are broken"

QQ more and enjoy your stay at the bottom of the arena food chain and being table bitches in BG, unless you learn to play.

Wizardspike said...

Molten Armor and Fel Armor do not stack via spellsteal.

fyi

Anonymous said...

"The reason mages are represented so low is simple: the playerbase (along with huntards) are horrible players. Terribad crying mages like Radikal whined for buffs and got them, but in the end they realized, you can't buff a terribad player.

At this point if they gave mages an instant cast ability to kill anything in 1 hit from 40 yards away, they would cry that they also need total invincibility, because "mages are broken"

QQ more and enjoy your stay at the bottom of the arena food chain and being table bitches in BG, unless you learn to play."

I lol'd. All sucky players picked mage on the start screen.

Anonymous said...

"The reason mages are represented so low is simple: the playerbase (along with huntards) are horrible players. Terribad crying mages like Radikal whined for buffs and got them, but in the end they realized, you can't buff a terribad player.

At this point if they gave mages an instant cast ability to kill anything in 1 hit from 40 yards away, they would cry that they also need total invincibility, because "mages are broken"

QQ more and enjoy your stay at the bottom of the arena food chain and being table bitches in BG, unless you learn to play."

I lol'd. All sucky players picked mage on the start screen.

Anonymous said...

Ya mana shield definitely drains more mana aswell as absorbs more. not sure if it was different in previous patches. anyway i absorb 1254 total on my mana shield with imp mana shield i lose 2006 mana. 1254 x 1.6 = 2006.4. Easiest to test on DR boom so spirit ticks dont effect you as much.

Anonymous said...

FUUUUCKKKKK, THINK I'M GONA GO DIE IN A CORNER!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Radi makes the big time, linked from the front page of MMO Champion

Anonymous said...

Blink -- Teleports the Caster 20 yrds in front of him. Also Causes PvP Targets to lose you as a target.


Mage Fix.

Raddy said...

If only this site was tagged NSFW, I'd be truly happy. Anon, I fucking love you; the spirit of Rambo is within you.

Anonymous said...

The spirit of Godrambo is within us all. Soon he will return to Azeroth as if resurrected by one million Soulstones.

Godrambo bless Azeroth. In Godrambo we trust.

-Alexial

Oppo said...

"The reason mages are represented so low is simple: the playerbase (along with huntards) are horrible players. Terribad crying mages like Radikal whined for buffs and got them, but in the end they realized, you can't buff a terribad player.

At this point if they gave mages an instant cast ability to kill anything in 1 hit from 40 yards away, they would cry that they also need total invincibility, because "mages are broken"

QQ more and enjoy your stay at the bottom of the arena food chain and being table bitches in BG, unless you learn to play...

...like us warlocks, who win by virtue of us merely being more skilled than everyone else since between patch X and Y, and us druids, who play 5s on absinthe but play 2s on diazepam and have icy veins IRL.

Anonymous said...

"The total cost should be the total absorb after coefficient bonus *2 + base cost."
-Kalgan on the mage forums

Josh said...

"If only this site was tagged NSFW, I'd be truly happy. Anon, I fucking love you; the spirit of Rambo is within you."

It's still blocked as "Reason- Pornography" at work for me :((((

Ivan said...

Raddy,
With all of these changes, do u think that AP/POM/Pyro will be a solid 2's build to replace 17/0/44?

I'm going to make a new team with a Ret pally once 2.4 hits. Thoughts?

Andy said...

DUDE, you got referenced on mmo-champion.com GOGO

icicles said...

tbh, ap mage works better with rogue, but frost works better with ret pally. you're not as rushed to get a kill with a pally partner (rogue cooldowns), and you have more help in setting up shatters (bop, freedom, etc.), also the frost snare helps keep the pally close to the target (faster yes, but no sprint, shadowstep, etc. to close if distance is gained).

Zaldinar said...

Honestly without research showing that the coefficient damage is 'free', this doesn't say much.

if the overall cost is still:

Base Mana + 2.0 * Absorbed

Then this change really doesnt change a whole lot. It gives a very small gain in that you don't need to recast as often for more absorption, saving your base mana a bit, but it is hardly incredible.

Sancus said...

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=4976429662&pageNo=2&sid=1#25

Was too good to be true. They really don't want us using Mana Shield after all.

Artanias said...

Saqe if your writing this, any news on when your gonna release your secret on how to get blast wave back? :(

Anonymous said...

Yeah raddy, check the Mage Forums. Looks like they "reconsidered" from the fake patch notes, it's just a bigger version of the same gimmick spell as before.

Spenglbeiser said...

In light if Kalgan's response that the mana cost, will continue scale with the absorption cost, I went ahead and made a giant TLDR thread on the Test Realm Forums.

I know, I have too much free time, but if anyone wants to have a look, here it is:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=4976250594&sid=1

Also, parallel thread on the Mage Forums:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=4976250551&sid=1

Anonymous said...

Neilyo is nerdcriting through manashield, no?

Anonymous said...

As people have said, apparently mana shield is supposed to drain extra mana for the extra shielding from gear. I'd love it not to, but I don't get my hopes up.

Anyway, I found myself disagreeing with your BG rant a lot. Do you honestly think mages can handle 3 people better than a warlock or even a disc priest? I regularly 1vX people on my disc priest (the only limiting factor here is mana), possibly just as much as on my mage, and while I don't have a warlock myself, I've seen lock friends do some pretty crazy 1vXs. And AP+POM+Pyroblast insta-killing people? I rarely come across people that will die in a pyroblast/fireblast/blastwave chain (~5-6k-ish with no crits), unless the pyroblast crits. Frost burst damage is what's ridiculous, especially in BGs. If you can sneak up on some people to wind up a shatter combo, if your opponent has low resilience, they just get BOOMED, 6k+ damage just from the bolt+lance, if they have low resi. Then you're free to fireblast/coc or wind up another bolt.

I'm really surprised you think that AP Fire rips up the battlegrounds, honestly. I find that deep fire and frost both do far better there. With all the PVE talents, deep fire specced fireballs approach the damage of AP/fire specced fireballs WITH AP UP, and have a shorter cast time (unless you take imp fireball over impact as AP/fire). Blowing AP is nowhere NEAR as powerful as it was pre-bc where you were guaranteed a kill on almost anyone, as opposed to only killing terribly-geared players.

Damn that turned out to be a ridiculously long ADD rant. I was originally just going to be like "buff ap fire yo". WHAT HAVE I DONE? I could have made a whole blog out of it.

Raddy said...

I have apparently very different experiences playing AP/Fire than other players heh.

Perhaps a vid is due...

Anonymous said...

Eh, AP/fire seems like sort of a gearspec (in the sense that you need to start with gear to pull it off, not that the gear "plays it for you" as the level 60 stereotype suggested); also, most mages are so indoctrinated to 17/0/44 from the moment they hit 70 that the very concept of another spec working in ANY CONTEXT is simply heresy. Burned at the stake, IMO. Hehe. Burned at the stake. Arcane/fire. God I need another hobby.

Anonymous said...

Please do make a vid, even though BG pvp vids tend to get downrated and scoffed at nowadays, I'd find a 1vX BG movie a lot more entertaining than most arena movies have been lately.

Tef said...

A 0/0/0 mage is unkillable in BGs, in my experience.

But you have to be a total pussy. For actual death in fights where people are targeting you, I think two ice blocks and the dualWE beats Ness powers.

Anonymous said...

@U BAD MAGES

LINK GOT CUT.. put together!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/
eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=
150222823581

3 lines together,

YOU WONT REGRET!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Man, really want to know how can you be that smart, lol...great read, thanks.