The new "cookie-cutter" WE specs are basically:
- 17/0/44 - The most played by still a decent margin due solely to Imp CS. I play this the huge majority of the time, so expect some bias. Basically, you sacrifice impact and some extra frostbolt damage for Imp CS; you can rearrange things a few different ways to change exactly what you're trading for Imp CS, but that's the gist of it. The talents other than impact in fire and stuff like Ice Floes in frost are really not significant -- they aren't awful, but they're not leaps and bounds better than the "filler" Arcane talents. Clearcasting is a wash when you compare it to Frost Channeling and Master of Elements. (MoE is probably the best of the 3 in arena play actually)
- 0/18/43 - Impact, Ignite, Imp Fireblast, Incinerate, and MoE is pretty common. Some argue that taking ignite is bad due to CC issues -- I've found the extra damage to be generally worth the occasional need to poly a different target, or CoC kite that extra few seconds. MoE is huge mana and is really the only point in taking fire this deep.
- 0/7/54 - Everything good in frost plus impact basically. If you think everything past impact is worthless in fire, don't fireblast every time it's up very often, you opt to max frostbolt and pick up the frost utility talents.
- 0/10/51 - Compromise with above where you still max frostbolt, but take imp fireblast as well. Basically, you've improved your core damage as much as possible like this.
- 19/0/42 - Was briefly popular after mana shield change -- one of the few WE dueling specs that is pretty pointless in arena.
- 0/13/48 - Tweaked 0/10/51 to pickup ignite AND imp fireblast as well as full frost damage talents. Most of the shallow fire, deep deep frost specs play almost identically, people overdramatize the difference in these specs pretty big time. (blah blah technically blah blah yawn shut up and play ^^)
- Ice Floes is a dueling talent. This talent is good because it reduces CoC and Barrier cooldowns; the reduction to Ice Block is meaningless. "But this like one time I like got to like use like an extra IB" -- that's cool bro, this one time I like beat up this homeless, blind dude on the street and I don't know where I'm going with that, but who cares, it's stupid.
- Frozen Core is bad. It's syphilis.
- Imp CoC is VERY GOOD - Why do most people not take this? It turns CoC into a spell where you should never use above rank 1 into a powerful instant. The extra few hundred damage here does matter and can really win games. If you don't spec at least 1/3, don't even bind a rank above 1. It's cool, I know good people with 0/3 CoC because they don't like using the spell, but they use rank 1; what isn't cool is when mages on top 10 teams in my BG like run up and CoC crit me for 800. 645 mana? Good decision.
- Permafrost hasn't sucked since the 1.11 revamp. Don't be that guy with 0/3 perma and 3/3 Imp Blizz. Perma also grants you the ability to keep something perma CoC snared, which is mostly a dueling or 2v2 thing, but is still situationally useful in 3s and 5s. Oh, and that whole Imp CoC > hamstring thing. Kinda, sorta, useful. F U RADDY I'M SPECCING ICE FLOES.
- Arctic Winds is a weird talent. It is really not any better or worse than Emp Frostbolt and really depends on your team and how you play and really doesn't matter.
- Winter's Chill - I don't get the whole 5/5 WC -- 4/5 is plenty good. I also see ballers who roll with 2/5 -- nevermind, they're just stupid. The point is not the omgeese crit bonus, it's to frustrate dispels, 4/5 does this fine, but 5/5 whatever, it's no big deal. It's really one of those talents you don't notice being good -- it sounds pretty useless on paper, but I think most players get addicted to it after playing it a while. Pally cleansing that rank 1 frostbolt snare, then cleansing detect, then the war giving up and trinketing, then resheeping and redecting, and a few more wasted GCD on dispels is priceless. It's great with lock and priest dots and various roots and snares too.
- Imp Blizzard - Well, it looks pretty good next patch. ^^
48 comments:
1st lewl
It's time you started balling Raddy...
Time to go 56 fire / 5 frost w/ double reflect talents.
Let the ownage commence.
In addition...a sick vid to check out imo ^^
http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=43534
tauren ele shaman korean style
Also there are like 2-3 really good WE vids on the wowmovies.cn site (even though they don't have ice lance x_x)...too bad a good WE movie is as entertaining as watching grass grow
the magichand 2 vid is ok I guess...vent convo in there is pretty funny
www.pvpsource.com
New PvP blog site btw x_x
17/0/44
clearcasting is great
imp cs is great for people with not american latencies
ice floes sucks
permafrost owns in 3s and 2s
winter chill is addicive
arctic winds i love it
2c
Hello.
I suck.
Can I have some links to builds please ><
What may seem obvious to you are probly things I don't see as clutch yet.
I am very bad :X
Ice floes is useful if only for being able to use your most powerful snare that much more often.
Ice floes is useful if only for being able to use your most powerful snare that much more often.
First time I saw you in arena was last week. Let's just say I'll be reading your site from now on =p
Hey Raddy, hi Guys,
my English is not that good and obviously all the important infos in this Threat I don’t understand 8-)
I don’t know what “wash” means, so Freecast is not that good for my manapool like canalising?
U don’t specc Ice Floes, right?
U spend 3/3 in Perma, right?
U prefer Winds instead of imp Bolt, right?
U say, it’s necessary to spend 4/5 in Winters Chill? (in my “dream-Specc” I would have only 3 points left for this talent), do U think, 3/5 is wasting 3 points?
Thanks a lot for translating, maybe U say a few words about the “filling-Speccs” in the Arcanetree, do U 5/5 in imp. Missiles?
I dunno if that last bit as sarcasm or what, but what changes about Blizzard next patch?
Ah, never mind. Saw your previous entry. =P
Radikal,
You failed to mention full blown 61 frost spec 0/0/61.
You can do very well going all out frost and not miss anything in the other tree's.
61 frost picks up all talents but the reduced fire and frost talent by 4% and only putting in 1 point in imp Blizzard giving it the snare effect.
For those who don't use ice floes dont really understand the potential of this talent and the spells it improves. That talent stacked with improved permafrost is a 12 second instant cast coc snare.
You can kite forever and the spell resets before the snare is over. Juggiling WE nova with frost nova's or level 1 9 sec frost bolt snares, there isn't much you can't kill or kite continously.
Not only that frost channelling maxed your ice lances only cost 127 mana stacking on 5 winter chills at a rapid pace with little to no mana. Helping your WE crit for 1200+ or more every other spell.
1 point in imp blizzard gives snare effects for those vanishers or quick group snare for 4.5 50% snare secs that can also proc frostbite.
Improved frost shield for reflect and dominance against other WE users. Not to mention more durabilty in melee situations and a slight increase in frost resistance.
IMP Coc 3/3 is a great talent and it hits in the 800+'s and crits for 1800+ with 700 + spell damage gear. With channeling its mana cost makes it very usuable and not costly for the damage it pumps out and is on par or greater then fireblast and just gives ice users another ice instant to add a additional winter chill quickly while kiting when fireblast is down or when you know you cant stand and cast a bolt.
When you go full frost you really capitalize on all its talents and abilities without lacking anything else. Counter can still be used effectively with timing without waisting so many points to get to imp counter. Clearcasting is swapped with channeling but only spending 3 instead of 5. And the other talents to get to Imp Counter compared to going full frost are just a waist.
2 icelances stacked with a sheep and detect makes heavy frost very effective and cheap in all arena battles prevent quick dispells and great crowd control.
Frost armor over powers molten armor with is constant ability to apply frostbites to anything that touches you close range.
So basically if your talking specifically WE builds I personally feel 61 frost makes you and your WE pet the strongest overall compared to 17/0/44 cookie cutters or elemental frost mages.
Check it out and let me know what you think you won't be dissapointed. It is also used in arena by talented players as well as duels.
If you want to get the exact build you can check armory but like I said its everything but reduced 4% damage and only 1 point in imp blizz.
Darkflame
70 mage gorefiend
Sup essay. You know some people actually have clear casting AND frost channeling?
Winter's Chill is still probably the most overlooked talent. People just don't realize how frustrating dispelling through all those trash debuffs actually is.
FU RADDY IM SPECCING ICE FLOES
>Pally cleansing that rank 1 >frostbolt snare, then cleansing >detect, then the war giving up and >trinketing, then resheeping and >redecting
Always thought cleanse removes the latest debuffs, just like dispell, which would remove the spells in the following order: detect, sheep, winters chill, frostbolt snare.
Thus it forces extra cleanses on snares and frost novas, but not on sheeps?
Hey Klassick,
I agree how fustrating dispelling winter chill is which makes every frost spell you cast a annoyance for anyone dispelling.
But you mention those having both clear casting and channeling. If you take those 10 points and use them for over frost talents. It just makes your frost spells even more dangerous and stronger.
Im not saying arcane tree is bad im just saying that when you compare frost tree and arcane tree and last 17 points spent your getting much more beneficial abilities staying full frost then hoping to the other for one move. That you already have but is used for 4 sec silence if not used on a casting victim.
If you want to just stop them for 4 secs sheep can do the same. IMP CS use to be a must but now after the 8 sec nerf it really isn't necessarily needed as a must if your timing is good with just regular counter.
What do you other frost mages think??? Do you feel that 17 additional points to a 44 talent tree frost built would be more viable then going imp cs. Or is imp cs just that important if your a skilled player.
I ran over the benefits time and time again and yet still I feel full frost is just that much stronger.
For those that comment thanks for the feedback.
Darkflame
For the annymous comment on paladins cleansing.
I have fought tons of pallys and I would start with a frostbolt ice lance combo and I have seen them spam cleanse 2 or more just to get out of it.
They usually go and cast freedom after that and I strip it with spell steal and then unleash iclance pet nova frostbolt icelance combo. They never seem to get off of the winterchills off before it breaks.
Sometimes winterchill is before sometimes after depending on how many spells is on a target.
Also frostbolt hits first and then winterchill is added afterwards. So if your comment is accurate about it cleansing the last thing cast then it would have to go through winterchill first before the frostbolt snare. Just like going through detect magic before sheep.
Darkflame
-_- you're on a 5v5 4 dps team where you're the primary dps.... why in the world would you consider "extra frostbolt damage" to be unimportant?
Darkflame that's what I said, it protects snares and frost novas but doesn't protect sheeps, thus I don't understand how Raddy makes a pala cleanse frostbolt snare on a sheeped target before the sheep gets cleansed.
gotcha. yeah if its a single target the only thing preventing a sheep is detect magic.
He confused me as well on that comment. I guess I was stating more so on how strong 61 frost spec was and should be added to the great builds as WE spec.
Darkflame
Well there's no point in speccing full frost over impact and rest in frost imo.
Ok lets talk about this for a second. The cost of talent points and the beneficial effect of each.
Frost Armor
Talent increase 2 points
Frost resistance
Increased Armor
Improved Frost Ward (Spell Reflect)
Decrease melee attack speed 25%
Snare 50% on melee contact 8 secs with improved permafrost.
Frostbite 15% each time hit and additional duration of time per hit. Overall crit on frostbite targets average 65-75% or higher with winterchill and 5% crit frost talent and base 10% crit at level 70 = 2k icelance while kiting/sheep/ or a free getaway.
vs
Molten Armor
Talent increase 5 points (Impact)
Increase overal crit 3%
Damage melee attackers on hit
Chance of stun 10% on contact(deminishing returns faster then that of frostbite)
You can clearly see if going heavy frost that frost amor even if fighting a pure caster is more beneficial for the cost of talents overall.
You can take those additional 3 points and max out your cone of cold or channeling or something else just more useful in the frost tree.
Sure molten can stun rogues in cos but I haven't fought a rogue yet that I couldn't trap in a frostbite or nova with all the frost tools we have. Which when it does gg mage wins.
This is why I feel going impact is as beneficial as improved frost armor/ward.
If your looking for crit molten gives that regardless if you can stand and pluck away. But 5/5 winterchill will give you 10% crit or 5% crit increase with all frost spell talent makes up for it.
Darkflame
Which debuff gets dispelled is random, of course. Ice armor only procs frostbite when the snare is applied (I'm not sure how often that is, I'm suing molten+impact).
@ Darkflame
You forgot the key component of Molten Armor.
It could also read, "For each talent point, grants the mage 40 resilience."
Now is it sounding any better? :)
-5% crit is literally 200 resilience for free. Who wouldn't want that, unless you're Raddy and nobody ever attacks you unless your team already lost.
Quick trinket question. For PVP what combo?
Lightning capacitor
Quag's eye
Heroic 41 badge trinket
nexus horn
Resil Medallion
I realize some of these will change depending on bgs vs 2v2 - 5v5 just curious what you guys think. Thanks.
Oh and I thought of another general point about Raddy's article. IMHO clearcasting is not a "wash" when compared with Channeling. Lots of stuff could happen to make you "waste" you 10% proc of clearcasting, such as it proccing a split second before you frost nova, causing you to lose it on a Rank 1 spell. Also, channeling is a base 15%, not 10%. I would say, unless you are very, very careful to get the most from clearcasting (ie use it on fireblast, etc.), then channeling probably wins in the long haul.
^ forgot to mention I'm 10 0 51
To anonymous,
Yeah your right about the - 5% crit which is also a great buff. But it is also a buff that doesn't require 5 talent points to take advantage of. Im a huge fan of Molten armor, but not enough to blow the 5 talent points in it for impact.
One can easily say well one class can do this against frost armor and it becomes worthless for 3-5 secs. The same can be said about a orc warrior with improve stun resist and stun resist meta gem all over a mage with molten armor/impact.
I have gone 0/5/56 a few times and enjoyed the pleasures of molten armor with ice shield ect. Overall in my experience the that love most mages have for Molten Armor that are deep frost will get those benefits without blowing 5 points in impact.
But i guess it just comes down to playing style. Some mages don't even use cone of cold. Some dont even touch Blizzard after hitting 70. If certain individuals are that kind of mage then you should have close to 10 free points to spend it on what you like without targeting those talents. If that was your case then going impact would be a great move. It's definately better then going arcane missles.
Super heavy 61 frost is geared for those mages that can utilize every frost spell and the utilities that are provided for them.
The other person asking about trinket combos. If you can get your hand on lighting capacitor the electrical charges great. Works really well with shatter and all the nova's we have use that and resilience pvp trinket.
If you want to see an example check out FAXMONKEY WTFrost Vol.1 NEW PVP VIDEO.
@ www.warcraftmovies.com it shows how deadly a frost mage can really be. I recommend it to any frost mage. Oh and he has 1280 spell damage gear imo.
Darkflame
I really think what it comes down to is on question, and one question only... the rest is just "details", so to speak.
The question is, "Will a 4 second silence win me games?"
If yes, then 17/44 is really the only (frost) spec imho.
Double the resist check for double pleasure.
There's some fierce discussion here. ^^
I can't really immediately talk about everything said, but I'll respond to 10 things real quick:
1) Dispel is random afaik.
2) Example build links I'll post when I get a chance
3) For filler arcane, I always go with 5/5 Imp Missiles, 5/5 Clearcasting, 5/5 Magic Absorption.
4) 3/5 WC is okay, but try 4/5 imo, I think you'll like it better. I can't think of too many specs where I'd want something more than that 4th point in WC.
5) When I say "wash" -- I mean that Clearcasting, Master of Elements, and Frost Channeling, are not really that different in how much extra mana they'll provide you. Having one of the three should leave you with plenty of mana on most teams if you stick to rank 1 poly and mana gem early.
6) 61 frost is a fine spec, I actually just forgot to talk about it. It is pretty popular, maybe I'll come back to discuss it. ^^
7) I consider "extra frostbolt damage" to be not worth it because the other talents provide greater benefit. =p Considering how resilience has been broken against mages for so long, the extra crit % was really not the damage boost you'd generally expect.
8) While clearcasting can sometimes proc in situations where you're going to rank 1 poly or nova anyways, often you can use those procs for very expensive spells such as arcane missiles to catch some running behind pillars or more commonly, a max rank CoC. I think on average you're definitely getting better than a base 10% from Clearcasting especially if you find yourself often able to change your next cast to take advantage of the proc. (even a fireblast isn't bad) Frost channeling isn't helping expensive stuff like missiles or fireblast which do get a lot of use; I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that it's hard to say "Frost channeling is strictly better for a frost mage"
9) Lightning capacitor and pvp trinket
10) I obviously spec Imp CS because I do think I can't live without the silence heh ^^ But I do whine a lot about not having impact.
oh bonus
11) I run with Molten armor always in 5s, and almost always in 2s and 3s. Its generally not that big an issue to switch to frost armor when you think you're going against a melee heavy team, and you'd only want to do this if you think they'll be focusing you. (which some teams definitely will in 3s) You don't need impact for MA to be good -- it just makes MA great. ^^ The crit reduction and extra crit % are both fantastic and underrated; we should still whine about getting a second rank on the forums though. Level 62, wtf?!
Great stuff Raddy, I love reading your posts. They're very insightful :D
I've been 17/0/44 cookie cutter since forever but lately I've been thinking about going 0/0/61 and giving it a try. It'd be nice if you could discuss it a lil bit cause that would be very helpful. Sometimes we don't see things when we look and need others to help point them out ;)
*Considering how resilience has been broken against mages for so long, the extra crit % was really not the damage boost you'd generally expect.
The crit reduction and extra crit % are both fantastic and underrated; we should still whine about getting a second rank on the forums though. Level 62, wtf?! *
How is imp frostbolt crit overrated, and motlen armor crit increase underrated?
I know MA is for all spells, but still...
Max rank CoC is still viable without the talents in certain situations, i.e. frost nova on double warriors with the chance to shatter crit both of them.
I keep them both rank 1 and max rank hotkeyed.
Gah i can't decide if i should go 17/0/44 or 0/5/56 or 61 full frost :p
CS is mostly used to stop heals, so lets take a look at classes you can CS.
Druid: CS their direct heal and they can only shapeshift or use balance if moonkin. imp CS can be useful to stop them using HoTs
Mage: Congrats if you CS their main school :p. They can still poly or use fire (if you CSed frost)
Paladin: CS their heal and they cant do anything but melee. imp CS is a waste.
Priest: If holy can't do much except AoE fear and mana burn. If shadow can't do shit. Dunno if you can shift out of shadowform while CSed?
Shaman: CS their heal and they can still use some shocks, totems and melee
Warlocks: CS their shadow school and they can only use fire which isn't a big deal unless they are Destro :p (not many of those ^^)
All these examples are without imp CS.
Of course you can use imp CS just for the 4s silence but that kinda is a waste imo. CS should be used on a casting target first and foremost.
Someone please help me decide, is the 4s sec silence that useful spending 17 points on it? give examples of why :p
Ps. Clearcast vs Frost channeling: 1 out of 10 casts to get a next manafree spell or 15% manareduce on all frost spells...If i could only choose one it would be the later. Clearcast ain't bad tho :)
Molten Armor is a great spell for offense and defense. It stacks well with 0/5/56 cause you can have -5% hit and -5% crit with 10% chance to stun on crit.
But honestly Molten Armor shines most with ignite. Cause MA can crit and burn it increases your chances for stuns.
Going 0/5/56 Your depending on the hits to do the stuns and if you have someone hitting you that much most of the time your going to die. Especially if its a 2 hander warrior with a merciless or = too weapon.
I guess I would say that molten would shine the best if you put at some points in ignite to max out its full potential. If you do that by all means go Molten Armor.
But the same can be said with frostbit/permafrost/precision/shatter/and improved Frost Armor. Each thing helps the other become stronger and creates great opportunities for combos or crowd control. We can have multiple frostbites in a fight against melee and casters with spells or with them attacking close range. And 1 frostbite = 2k damage ice lance 1800 fireblast combo or worse depending on situations. I personally feel that Ice armor gives better opportunity to win with heavy frost mage specs.
Also the reason I put 5 in winterchills is if I put any more then 1 point in improved blizzard it overwrites frostbolt snares and at max even cone of cold snares which your exchanging 12 secs for 4.5 secs. That is the reason i went 5/5 winterchill instead of 4/5 only putting one point in imp blizzard for 50% snare 4.5s.
Frost channeling by far for a frost mage is better. Bolts/nova/shields/coc/lances/iceblocks/blizzards ect. When you take account of how much it saves per each spell and caculate how much your full lets say 9k mana.
If you did nothing but cast ice lance for 9k worth of mana. The regular cost of ice lance is
150 mana per cast
127 with FC
9k 60 ice lances
9k 71 ice lances FC
So just basing it off one spell that is how many attacks you will have above another mage without it kiting and spamming.
I can't count how many times it came down to the wire and my opponent was frostbiten and I was out of mana but regen just enough to finish a 2k hit off because of FC. Clearcasting using the big spells = having to stay stationary. Arcane Missles/Blizzard/pyroblast all take time to do damage and if your always on the move or mobel from attackers you wont be able to capitalize on that potential damage when the clearcasting goes off. Its just too random for me and no fight is ever the same when both players are skilled.
Also FC makes improved COC a normal spell that isn't so costly and does great damage up close protecting us from all melee attacks with easy kiting. Most people dont use coc cause of the cost of mana vs damage and with talent points in the right place you can eliminate that worry and dominate freely with the spell.
Now on another note imp CS is a great spell that can set up nice combos like frost nova silence frostbolt ice lance fireblast that will kill most people at 75% health. But in arena how often do you get that chance to sit and launch that combo. Imp CS can stop instant cast for 4 secs but occasionally you'll get the run around the pillar or back up healer keeping that individual up long enough for it to wear off if you blow it on a not casting individual.
So I guess it comes back to the saying if I dont need imp CS and use frost channeling over clearcasting and dont need AM unless i get countered then why waiste 17 points in Arcane tree when you can make your frost talents that much stronger?
Imp CS is a great attribute but is it a dire need no so test out other things without it im sure you those who were wondering wont miss it much.
In conclussion it seems:
17/0/44 - 0/5/56 - 0/0/61
all have great things to offer based on style and defense. Choose whatever fits your style the best and share with us your experiences.
Another decent build is to roll 1/0/60. I agree that Floes is more of a dueling talent which means that it's more usefull in 2v2 / 3v3's so this build is perhaps a bit more well rounded for all the arenas.
You lose Imp CS (17/0/44 build comparison here), gain 8% mana, + 3 hit, WChill goes up 20% faster, 5% extra FB crit, and more FB damage. It depends on your team mates / playstyle but I like this build more that the 17/44 build after playing with it a while (1 pt. in arcane for +2% hit on ur polly's).
MA vs IA
Frostbite > impact, impact is just a minor stun while frostbite means dmg :p
-5% getting crit > 4% physical dmg reduce
IA: Atk speed slow is pretty decent
IA: Snare useless for me i got CoC /w permafrost instead
MA: 3% spellcrit, pretty good
Conclusion...It's a hard choice really, i still can't decide what to use :p. Only reason i'd use IA is to get a frostbite proc so i can burst melee's down faster. MA -5% crit is very sexy tho and can be life saving. One thing is for sure IA is useless vs casters.
Ps. I'm leaning towards MA ^^
Frostbite does bugger all against a warrior with freedom, and you should be able to pull a snare out of your ass if he doesn't have the freedom, the extra crit is nice too.
Spell steal freedom gone :0) back to kiting pwnage.
I didn't know there was a mage site. Sweet, good work Raddy.
I'll still be taking Ice Floes for the reduction to ice barrier and cone of cold. In particular ice barrier, as it can be crucial for pulling off a clean, uninterrupted cast if you have someone forcing pushback procs;say a pet, or ranged attacker, what have you. Perhaps the biggest personal reason though, is that my 'sixth-sense' that tells me when timers are up is finely tuned to 24 seconds on ice barrier. =p
^ above comment posted by Vontre
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